What former Ice Skaters would have benefited from CoP?

[sk8m8]

It's an interesting proposition. If CoP had been in place as a judging system all aloing who do you think would have benefited by virtue of mostly their skating skills over their jumping abilities. I always felt that Jill Trenery would have been marked much higher had she been given all the credit she did with carriage, posture, transitions, footwork, etc. Her inconsistent jumps and her injuries were her downfall, but she was still terrific and skated like butter.

Likewise, though Toller is a legend in his own right for all his efforts as a skater, I think if you measure him by CoP standards (of the skills being done in his era) his second score would have been through the charts.

Now what about you, who are your nominees?

 

[Vash01]

Actually Jill Trenary benefitted tremendously from the compulsory school figures.

Michelle would have won the 1998 Olympics if the COP was in place.

Caryn Kadavy, Anna Kondrashova, Maria Butyrskaya would have benefitted from COP. I don't know if the first two would have actually WON (I did not see them enough number of times), but they might have placed higher. Caryn could have won more medals.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

I think that Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov would have benefited from the COP. Their programs were always exquisite

 

[Linny]

benefitted from CoPs

Surya Bonally would have benefitted big-time.
Linny

 

[JonnyCoop]

I think that Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov would have benefited from the COP. Their programs were always exquisite

I'm not disagreeing with this, but if you look at their record, it couldn't have been any better anyway -- didn't they win every international they ever entered, excluding the 88 Worlds when Katia was sick?

Off the top of my head, my main nomination would have to be Elizabeth Punsalan & Jerod Swallow -- they had excellent technique and would have gotten better results IMO from a less political judging system.

This is not necessarily a nomination, but since COP came into existence, I've always kind of wondered about Lucinda Ruh -- how many points would she have racked up with those mind-boggling spins??

 

[Linny]

mind boggling spins

How about Todd Eldridge? His spins were also mind boggling, but he ended his career struggling with the quad.

Of course, his record is also very, very good, so perhaps he wouldn't have benefited that much.

Linny

 

[Peaches1972]

Paul Wylie

&

I have only seen her via tapes:

Janet Lynn

 

[lavender]

Surya Bonally would have benefitted big-time.
Linny

I think she would have been in the Yoshie Onda level. When she was eligible she telegraphed something awful.

 

[Fossi]

How would Nicole Bobek or Tara Lipinski have done with COP? What about Maria B?

 

[JonnyCoop]

I'm not sure Bonaly would have benefitted, either, tho she may have by at least having to become a better BASIC skater to get anywhere. Yeah, she had the jumps, and a certain je ne said quois, BUT her edging was terrible, her technique was lurchy, and for the most part her presentation and choreography were 2nd-rate if that. And even with the jumps, she, at least in her first few seasons, had minimal speed coming OUT of them (this is a similar problem that Cynthia Phaneuf could stand to correct) and it slowed down the overall program while she tried to get her speed back.

 

[Vash01]

I think that Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov would have benefited from the COP. Their programs were always exquisite

They won everything so it is irrelevant.

 

[Vash01]

How would Nicole Bobek or Tara Lipinski have done with COP? What about Maria B?

Nicole and Tara had bad technique on the lutzes. Tara's jumps were tiny and she could not have won the 98 Olympics under the COP. Nicole rarely skated clean, and I don't think she would have done any different under COP. Maria B. OTOH would have benefitted a lot from COP. She had sophisticated choreography, good positions, and a true lutz. She would have lost points on the stiff landings (and she did in the 6.0 system too), but would have gained from everything else.

Vash

 

[Vash01]

I'm not sure Bonaly would have benefitted, either, tho she may have by at least having to become a better BASIC skater to get anywhere. Yeah, she had the jumps, and a certain je ne said quois, BUT her edging was terrible, her technique was lurchy, and for the most part her presentation and choreography were 2nd-rate if that. And even with the jumps, she, at least in her first few seasons, had minimal speed coming OUT of them (this is a similar problem that Cynthia Phaneuf could stand to correct) and it slowed down the overall program while she tried to get her speed back.

Surya could not possibly have benefitted from the COP. She is an exciting show skater but her lack of basics made it difficult for her to win even under the 6.0 system. Her jumps helped her. Under the COP they would not helped her to that extent. Her components marks would have been considerably lower. Her artistic/presentation marks in the 6.0 were always lower than her tech marks.

Vash

 

[graceness]

Surya??!

Surya Bonally would have benefitted big-time.
Linny

Linny, why do you say this?

In competition, Surya was the least pleasing skater to watch that I have ever seen. Her programs often lacked in choreography and gave the impression of being created on the spot.

Graceness

 

[Linny]

Surya

Because CoP gives the skater points for completing the jumps, even if the judges don't like the technique. They can take 1,2 or 3 points off. A lurchy landing would give her probably only one point off. Without CoPs, the judges simply ignored the jumps altogether because they didn't like her technique.

Surya was also quite capable of doing a wide variety of interesting moves - she's shown that as a professional. These, too, would have been rewarded under CoP. Without CoPs, she was discouraged from being creative.

Perhaps the end results would have been the same - she got a Silver at Worlds, right? So her competitive career wasn't all a bust...

Linny

 

[iluvtodd]

How about Todd Eldredge? His spins were also mind boggling, but he ended his career struggling with the quad.

Of course, his record is also very, very good, so perhaps he wouldn't have benefited that much.

Linny

Linny, I think Todd would have done quite well under the CoP. Hopefully he would have gottten credit for the many things he does well (kind of like how Jeff Buttle was judged
in Cup of China). I just don't care about quads to the exclusion of everything else - they are just one element. Give me the complete package - balanced skating. Todd does have a very good record over all, though. Now if they would just resolve the issue of anonymous judging ...

 

[dorispulaski]

Interesting question!

And tricky too, because the 8.5 skaters versus the 5.5 skaters in the PCS scores make a huge difference.

Definitely, definitely, Midori Ito!! Particularly in the 1988 Olympics, which I think she would have won. (no figures and she had jam packed programs) Midori might have taken a whack in the Choreo and Interp, but had transitions and good skating skills. I have yet to see anyone get much hit for leg wrap under COP.

I would think Tonya Harding, particularly in the 1986 to 1988 time frame, would really have benefitted. She was doing a good quality 3lz from about age 12 when no other US lady was in the US was. And she had a good lutz edge.

Kristi Yamaguchi would have passed Jill Trenary way way earlier. Jill got huge boosts on her second mark when she was generally falling all over the place, and got a second boost from figures.

Among the men. Check out Canadian Gary Beacom, whose last eligible competition was the 1984 World's-all that complex footwork and spin stuff.

Similarly Rudi Galindo in his post pairs days, in the days when he couldn't land the 3A, would have picked up extra points on spins and footwork. He might have placed as high as 3rd in the US in a couple of years.

Of course Toller--any system, including COP, that got rid of figures.

Any interesting question would be the Orser/Boitano question. And I am not sure how that would have played out. Orser had the quick steps, but Boitano the greater amplitude in everything and very very good edge control. I'd love to see somebody rescore their programs who knew what they were doing.

Doris

 

[sk8m8]

Great thoughts guys and gals,

This is even another thread, but someone brought up michelle vs.tara, take a gander at your memories and think about rivalrys that might have come out differently on CoP comparison. Though he's been mentioned before, I think the Paul Wylie/Scott Davis/Chris Bowman Era could be an interesting compare and contrast in who won on 6.0 system vs CoPs.

I also nominate Shae and Vic as a dance team that would have racked up on CoP and were subjected to the worst kind of biases in their career. I would have rated their Riverdance one of the more beautifully executed program in any era.

Conversely, I think now the Bulgarians aree finally being recognized for their innovation and presentation. In previous years, their unorthodox music, costume, and dance might have been given the cold shoulder. Under CoP those sorts of things are the things that help your score when done properly (as I feel the Bulgarians have done with their program this year.

 

[Vash01]

Linny, I think Todd would have done quite well under the CoP. Hopefully he would have gottten credit for the many things he does well (kind of like how Jeff Buttle was judged
in Cup of China). I just don't care about quads to the exclusion of everything else - they are just one element. Give me the complete package - balanced skating. Todd does have a very good record over all, though. Now if they would just resolve the issue of anonymous judging ...

Todd had great spins but his programs had virtually no choreography. He was just going from cross overs to jumps, without any difficulty in the entries. I think he would not have done that well under the COP. His jump consistency helped him in the 6.0 system, and yes, those spins got the judges' attention too.

Vash

 

[Vash01]

Because CoP gives the skater points for completing the jumps, even if the judges don't like the technique. They can take 1,2 or 3 points off. A lurchy landing would give her probably only one point off. Without CoPs, the judges simply ignored the jumps altogether because they didn't like her technique.

Surya was also quite capable of doing a wide variety of interesting moves - she's shown that as a professional. These, too, would have been rewarded under CoP. Without CoPs, she was discouraged from being creative.

Perhaps the end results would have been the same - she got a Silver at Worlds, right? So her competitive career wasn't all a bust...

Linny

Surya was a three-time silver medallist at worlds.

Vash