Why is music recycled so often in figure skating?

[Mathematician]

Genuinely, is it that hard to find a waltz with very similar rhythm and atmosphere to Masquerade that isnt Masquerade? Like, for the sake of originality? I actually don't understand the reason they keep recycling like this.

Sometimes it sort makes sense; for instance, Bolero is unique and fits the choreographic mold of figure skating perfectly.

But like, most songs are just recycled for seemingly zero reason? Like super basic pop songs, algorithmic classical... Je Suis Malade... I wont even begin to list names because there's so many, but we all know...

Anyways, it seems so genuinely easy to find unique music fitting for programs that it leads me to believe there's a universal reason they don't do it. Anyone know? Or is there only a certain amount of songs that are approved by some committee? Copyright? Royalties? I just don't understand.

 

[Warwick360]

Genuinely, is it that hard to find a waltz with very similar rhythm and atmosphere to Masquerade that isnt Masquerade? Like, for the sake of originality? I actually don't understand the reason they keep recycling like this.

Sometimes it sort makes sense; for instance, Bolero is unique and fits the choreographic mold of figure skating perfectly.

But like, most songs are just recycled for seemingly zero reason? Je Suis Malade... I wont even begin to list them because theres so many.

Anyways, it seems so genuinely easy to find unique music fitting for programs that it leads me to believe there's a universal reason they don't do it. Anyone know? Or is there only a certain amount of songs that are approved by some committee? Copyright? Royalties? I just don't understand.

All I could come up with.

1. Judges love a war horse.
2. People seem to love their idols before them....sometimes a bit too much.
3. Many choreographers/coaches out there don't have much imagination to call their own.
4.Sometimes it is just the zeitgeist. Having said that....if I have to hear 'Drowning' or 'Circles' one more time next year, I might have to skip the whole season.

 

[el henry]

An explanation from skaters?

From coaches and choreographers?

From fans?

I do know that all these groups are aware of "War Horse Bingo".

 

[cheerknithanson]

I would say it's a lack of creativity that's a part of it. There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of contemporary songs that work in figure skating. Some people don't look hard enough. Actually, listen might be the right word. I've found maybe close to 20 contemporary songs that could potentially work for figure skating. At least 10. I know the only experience I have skating is going around the rink on public skates and birthday parties. But I feel like I can figure out what works in some ways.

Just like there's one video that shows a comic on how standards proliferate and grow into 10's of competing standards....we don't need anymore Boleros, Carmens, POTO, R+J, and Swan Lakes out there. There's enough of those out there.

 

[Mathematician]

An explanation from skaters?

From coaches and choreographers?

From fans?

I do know that all these groups are aware of "War Horse Bingo".

By explanation I meant like, actual reason they're objectively limited; as in royalties or copyright or something.

It looks like thats not a thing and they just do it out of some weird personal convictions about how judging works or laziness or whatever. Kind of dumb to me.

 

[el henry]

By explanation I meant like, actual reason they're objectively limited; as in royalties or copyright or something.

It looks like thats not a thing and they just do it out of some weird personal convictions about how judging works or laziness or whatever. Kind of dumb to me.

Yes, actual quotes from coaches and skaters and choreographers, that would be good. I haven't seen much specifically on this topic from them.

I have seen quite a bit from fans because War Horse Bingo is a subject that inspires strong opinions (me included). But most of the time, it is just conjecture as to why it happens.

Nothing wrong with conjecture, but it's not the explanation.

 

[gkelly]

Now that vocal music with lyrics is no longer forbidden, there are no specific rules about what music skaters can use.

(Ice dance does have some more specific guidelines about what is needed for each year's rhythm dance, and of course for the pattern dances used at lower levels etc.)

As @el henry says, I can only conjecture.

All I could come up with.

1. Judges love a war horse.

I don't think judges love warhorse music because it's a warhorse. More like a piece of music becomes a warhorse because judges love it.

I.e., music that allows skaters to showcase good skating skills and good interpretation skills. Including skaters who may not be very musically sophisticated because of their age or interests or the education available to them outside the rink.

Also that judges who don't have a lot of musical sophistication themselves can understand at first hearing. It may be hundredth hearing for pieces that have been used often, but first for this skater.

When a new movie comes out, for example, with a soundtrack that works well for skating, someone will be the first a judge sees skate to it the next season. If the music is good for skating and the skater does a good job, the judges will love it the first time, before it becomes a warhorse.

Of course, if many skaters latched on to the same soundtrack, it may feel overused well before that first season is over.

2. People seem to love their idols before them....sometimes a bit too much.

3. Many choreographers/coaches out there don't have much imagination to call their own.
4.Sometimes it is just the zeitgeist.

I agree these are all true.

When we as fans, or skaters or coaches/choreographers hear a piece of music we love and think would make great skating music, the skater and coach/choreographer need to bring the music onto the ice and figure out how to cut it to make it fit the competition requirements in terms of music duration and where to include all the elements. The skater has to work with it enough to see whether the musical rhythms help them execute the elements or whether the tempo is too fast (or too slow) for optimal jump setups, step sequence execution, stamina throughout a program, etc.

If it turns out that music a skater loves listening to works against them able to execute a program successfully, then it's not a good choice for a competitive program, at least not for that skater at that point in their career.

Sometimes a section of the music might work well for part of a program, but the rest of the same piece does not work well for the rest of the program. In which case, they can cut that portion of the new music with other pieces (new or tried-and-true) that will work better for the other program sections. Hence the proliferation of medleys.

If a new piece of music (new to skating anyway) does work well for a skater, then they'll use it and hopefully have success with it.

In which case other skaters will choose the same piece not long after.

 

[yesterday]

War Horse Bingo

Maybe an option here on the forum next to prediction contests?

 

[gkelly]

Also, is this a good question for this thread, or does it deserve a thread of its own?:

What are some pieces of music that you have seen one or a few skaters use successfully in competition, but few enough so far that you would like to see more?

Maybe include links to the program(s) that make you think it's good skating music and should be used more.

 

[Mathematician]

Also, is this a good question for this thread, or does it deserve a thread of its own?:

What are some pieces of music that you have seen one or a few skaters use successfully in competition, but few enough so far that you would like to see more?

Maybe include links to the program(s) that make you think it's good skating music and should be used more.

Why not?

Personally I never like seeing more than one skater dance to the same song, though. Ruins the magic for me.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Why not?

Personally I never like seeing more than one skater dance to the same song, though. Ruins the magic for me.

Then you would've really hated compulsory dance!

Also, it's kind of hard to not have some repeats as everyone doesn't consult with others in their competitive field around the world to see what they are and aren't skating to prior to picking their own music.

 

[Mathematician]

Then you would've really hated compulsory dance!

Also, it's kind of hard to not have some repeats as everyone doesn't consult with others in their competitive field around the world to see what they are and aren't skating to prior to picking their own music.

Haha, I know well about compulsory dance. Indeed not my favourite.

And yea, I understand that point, but some songs are so ubiquitous that its just confusing... like why? Oh well. Not a big deal I was just curious if there some rule set in the way or something.

 

[TallyT]

Why do the same pieces of music get used over and over in ads? Because they work. Seriously though, the music is an implement, a background tool of the trade as it is in ads. The skaters for the most part are not classical music/musical theatre/soundtrack experts (a decent percentage probably never even listen to any except for skating). I suspect that quite a few of the choreographers (more than will at all admit to it) don't have huge or adventurous 'serious' musical tastes either, and they clearly believe (with reason) that the judges of an essentially stuffy and oldfashioned officialdom will be more comfortable with... well, the aural equivalent of comfort food. And they are probably right. (Okay, sometimes they get too much comfort, like in 2015 with POTO, bit still...)

The warhorses tend to well known outside classical circles, for good reason, and are pieces people who don't listen to a lot of it have heard and like. Because they work.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

I think the judges do steer music choice, to some extent.

As an example, in the 2019-20 season Guignard/Fabric started the season with an original music choice in the RD (Paramour, an obscure Cirque du Soleil musical) but swiftly changed to Grease after 2 competitions, which disappointed some skating fans (myself included!) as there were at least 2 good Grease RDs on the circuit already and the Paramour program (especially at IdF) seemed to be a good vehicle for them.
Then, in an interview at the end of the season, G/F explained that they had loved their original idea, but had been advised by the judges to change the music to something more recognisable.

So how did your Paramour rhythm dance turn into Grease? Whose idea was it?

Marco: Well, at the beginning, we were looking for a musical which was not very popular.
...
[But] there were many judges after Lombardia Trophy, and even after the Grand Prix in France, that [said things like] “But we don’t know the music, what is this?”... It’s good, but it’s not direct...“It’s not very effective”, and with another music it would be easier…

Marco: I don’t like the fact that we were kind of obliged to change the program – because I would have liked to continue our way.

So if other skaters are getting similar feedback from the judges, I can see why they go the safer route with music choice, rather than risk doing something outside the box which they judges may dislike or give lower marks to because they don't 'get' the choice.

 

[rabidline]

I found this from Romain Haguenauer's interview:

“I always work with a frame”: Interview with Romain Haguenauer

Romain Haguenauer is one of the foremost ice dance coaches and choreographers. His brilliant career spans a few decades, beginning from his work in Lyon alongside the legendary coach Muriel Boucher…

skating-to-music.blog

— Earlier in our talk, you mentioned the British judge who was highly suspicious of Lilah’s and Lewis’s disco choice; you also emphasized at the beginning that figure skating is a judged sport, which of course impacts many decisions. This may explain why figure skating in general remains an extremely conservative sport in terms of musical choices. Throughout the history of this sport, one finds dozens of programs that use the same «Carmen», «Swan lake» or other popular classical pieces. There are strict gender expectations, too, which are also part of this conservatism — expectations for women and men to skate in certain ways, and for pairs’ programs to be all about the relationships between men and women. There are still a lot of stereotypes of this sort. How are you dealing with this issue? Have you ever tried to break the rules or overcome certain boundaries, this frame — and how?

— It is difficult to answer your question — but I do agree with everything you said! I appreciate variety in skating. If all skaters start skating to popular songs, everyone will complain that they are all doing the same thing. Some skaters can bring more modern and experimental stuff to the table, but others might be just not in that stage of their careers yet. I did ‘Swan lake’ with my Chinese team, for instance — and why not? It gave them the opportunity to work on their lines. A classical program could help some of the skaters to do this important work. The choice that we have is at the same time wide and not so wide. The problem lies not so much in the choice itself as in the quality of execution. It would not be all that bad if we were to watch 10 Swan lakes or Don Quixotes, on condition that the quality is there, that they are performed really well.

Another problem is that when the Olympics arrive, people want to win, to do their best, and they want an Olympic performance — not just to skate clean and make all the elements, but also to touch people. And it is very difficult to touch people with the music they don’t know. Classical hits belong to the whole world, whereas even the best songs, say, in Russia, or France, or the US, would hardly touch so much people from different countries and with a different background. This limits the choice we have.

I think the leaders in each discipline have to push the boundaries, because everyone’s unconsciously following the leader — not necessarily copying, but definitely making choices that are influenced by the leaders. I often get complaints that Gabriella and Guillaume are doing the same thing over and over again. But it is true about every couple that follows their lead. Somehow, for them it is fine, whereas for the leaders it becomes a problem all of a sudden. The leaders are more vulnerable, too, and often get attacked for their choices. People expect them to do something demanding, something new — that puts a lot of pressure on them, a lot of expectations.

Another problem with figure skating as a form of art is that its main stage — the ice rink — is simply horrible for artistic creation: it is too white, there is so much light there, you have the audience sitting all around, so there is no real background, no depth. And the atmosphere is not quite suitable either — it’s the opposite of what you have in all the great theaters. This impacts the choice, too. This place has not been created for the appreciation of music and art. It is much easier to achieve in an exhibition number, when the lights are switched off and you can focus on the skater. It is not at all like that during the competition — it looks more like a hockey match!

Ultimately, as a coach, I have to take risks into account. At the end, we are not creating art for the humanity to enjoy — we want to win medals. For that, we need to make the right strategical decisions, including the choice of music. People know that with these classical hits you can win, because someone else won before you. This music speaks to the people. We made some riskier choices, too, particularly with Gabriella and Guillaume — for instance, in their last free dance («Find me»). Some loved it, some did not understand, and some thought that it was not music at all. I heard this from some judges: it is not music!

But then my natural response would be: define what is music! Because to me, if there is sound — there is music.

For further reading about how choreographers work with music, I recommend reading the owner of the website's other interviews!

Sandra Bezic: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/05/31/a-portrait-of-the-choreographer-sandra-bezic/

David Wilson: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/...talks-about-his-collaboration-with-shoma-uno/

Benoit Richaud: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/09/03/i-like-to-remain-mysterious-interview-with-benoit-richaud/

 

[Mathematician]

I think the judges do steer music choice, to some extent.

As an example, in the 2019-20 season Guignard/Fabric started the season with an original music choice in the RD (Paramour, an obscure Cirque du Soleil musical) but swiftly changed to Grease after 2 competitions, which disappointed some skating fans (myself included!) as there were at least 2 good Grease RDs on the circuit already and the Paramour program (especially at IdF) seemed to be a good vehicle for them.
Then, in an interview at the end of the season, G/F explained that they had loved their original idea, but had been advised by the judges to change the music to something more recognisable.




So if other skaters are getting similar feedback from the judges, I can see why they go the safer route with music choice, rather than risk doing something outside the box which they judges may dislike or give lower marks to because they don't 'get' the choice.

Seems like a very unsophisticated disposition from the judges. But what can you expect from someone who's job isn't to create but to criticize - no offence to them.

 

[elbkup]

Also, is this a good question for this thread, or does it deserve a thread of its own?:

What are some pieces of music that you have seen one or a few skaters use successfully in competition, but few enough so far that you would like to see more?

Maybe include links to the program(s) that make you think it's good skating music and should be used more.

As a thread of its own it would probably invite numerous responses.. fans love posting their favorite music

 

[icewhite]

I found this from Romain Haguenauer's interview:

“I always work with a frame”: Interview with Romain Haguenauer

Romain Haguenauer is one of the foremost ice dance coaches and choreographers. His brilliant career spans a few decades, beginning from his work in Lyon alongside the legendary coach Muriel Boucher…

skating-to-music.blog

For further reading about how choreographers work with music, I recommend reading the owner of the website's other interviews!

Sandra Bezic: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/05/31/a-portrait-of-the-choreographer-sandra-bezic/

David Wilson: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/...talks-about-his-collaboration-with-shoma-uno/

Benoit Richaud: https://skating-to-music.blog/2020/09/03/i-like-to-remain-mysterious-interview-with-benoit-richaud/

thanks very much!

 

[skatesofgold]

I think maybe because they think warhorses are more accessible. I know at least one skater changed their mind about using a modern soundtrack (Avatar) because they didn't think it was familiar enough. It made me really sad.

 

[noskates]

On the more practical side, many of the warhorses have already been cut and pieced and are the correct length for the programs. But I'll also go with the suspicion that some choreographers are just lazy. It irks me when I see a tiny little junior or novice skating to POTO or Les Mis or music that totally overwhelms them. And please, for all that's holy, could we please please stop using Tango music. It's soooooo overused. As for what judges like - who knows? They should be focussed on how the skater interprets the music rather than the music itself.