Random Figure Skating Questions | Page 154 | Golden Skate

Random Figure Skating Questions

Done. Note that I have also added it to the Reference Forum Thread index, so you should always be able to find it easily.

There is also a permanent redirect in the Edge for those who look for it there.
 
Thank you so much! I can't wait to make it through all of those programs. Which is going to take a while, but I keep learning from each one I watch and at this point I need to learn from everything I watch.
 
I asked this question in the European Championships Ladies FS thread yesterday, but unfortunately nobody picked up on it (you know how quickly these competition threads move on!) So, I hope you don't mind me repeating it in here.


When I was making out my Ladies predictions at the start of the week, I looked up "Galustyan" on Stats On Ice, and it came up with 2 Nastys - one representing Armenia, and one representing the Ukraine.

Are they the same girl?

I did notice, the names were transliterated differently. The Armenian was "Anastasia" and the Ukrainian was "Anastasiya". But, as we all know by now, that doesn't mean anything. The transliteration of somebody's name can vary from one competition to the next.

Just curious to know if she had switched nationality twice (the girl we just saw is actually a Muscovite).


http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...s-Free-Skate&p=1360664&viewfull=1#post1360664


At the time I posted that question, the "Armenian profile" was not available (the profiles of the skaters competing at Europeans were not available whilst competitions were ongoing). But, it is now, so I have been able to add links to the question, and have a look comparing what they both say.

Looking at the distribution of the competitions on the 2 profiles, I do strongly suspect that it is the same girl.

BUT, if they are different girls, then that means the EYOF result is on the wrong profile. Because the Galustyan competing there was representing Armenia, not the Ukraine.

And that is why I want to know for sure. Because, I want to know whether to contact Curran about a result being on the wrong page, or whether to contact him about 2 profiles needing merged.

CaroLiza_fan
 
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They are the same girl, just compare the Ukrainian Open (2013) results both on Stats On Ice and on its official result page:
https://www.statsonice.com/competition/Ukrainian-Championships/12/2013/LADIES//SR/
http://skating-online.at.ua/ukr_open_2013/CAT001RS.htm
The same final standings of skaters including Anastasiya GALUSTYAN at 5th with SOI showing her representing UKR whereas the official page noting her as representing ARM.
If that's not enough, just watch Anastasiya's videos (SP/FS) @ the Ukrainian Open and any of Anastasia's videos (SP FS) @ the Europeans just held or any of her past Worlds/Euros/JGPs and confirm they are the same girl (unless they are twins, but you still see Stats On Ice is wrong about representing UKR.)
 
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They are the same girl, just compare the Ukrainian Open (2013) results both on Stats On Ice and on its official result page:
https://www.statsonice.com/competition/Ukrainian-Championships/12/2013/LADIES//SR/
http://skating-online.at.ua/ukr_open_2013/CAT001RS.htm
The same final standings of skaters including Anastasiya GALUSTYAN at 5th with SOI showing her representing UKR whereas the official page noting her as representing ARM.
If that's not enough, just watch Anastasiya's videos (SP/FS) @ the Ukrainian Open and any of Anastasia's videos (SP FS) @ the Europeans just held or any of her past Worlds/Euros/JGPs and confirm they are the same girl (unless they are twins, but you still see Stats On Ice is wrong about representing UKR.)

Right, so it looks like a mistake to her nationality was made when the results of the Ukrainian Open were put into the database. I suppose it's easy done, seeing as she was a new name to everybody and seeing as that competition doubled up as the Ukrainian Championships. But because the software identifies skaters based on the spelling of their name, whenever subsequent results with the same transliteration were put in, the Ukrainian flag was added automatically.

I could tell that "Galustyan" was an Armenian surname, but I don't know anything else about Anastasia. So, for all I knew she might have had a Ukrainian side to her family as well. Hey, it was only recently that I found out that Anna Pogorilaya's parents are both Ukrainian!

I'm actually glad to hear that it was just a mistake. Because I wouldn't want to think that Anastasia was one of these Russian skaters that was having to go around the former Soviet states looking for a ticket to the international competitions. She is too good to be having to do that.

Right, I'll let Curran know about this, as well as some other duplicate profiles I spotted while researching for my European, American and Canadian Championship predictions.

Thank you :bow: :clap: :rock: :points:

CaroLiza_fan
 
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Do all skaters prepare an exhibition program? I'm thinking like someone who is probably not a serious contender...but somehow lucks their way into a high placing. What if the skater did not prepare an exhibition program...or maybe didn't want to pay to have one choreographed because they never thought they'd make it to the exhibition? Do they skate their long program by default or how does that work?
 
But because the software identifies skaters based on the spelling of their name, [...]
Now that you mention this, I wonder if quite a lot of skaters have records split into different identities on Stats On Ice, as we've seen different English transliterations such as Lipnitskaia/Lipnitskaya and Tuktamisheva/Tuktamysheva.
 
Do all skaters prepare an exhibition program? I'm thinking like someone who is probably not a serious contender...but somehow lucks their way into a high placing. What if the skater did not prepare an exhibition program...or maybe didn't want to pay to have one choreographed because they never thought they'd make it to the exhibition? Do they skate their long program by default or how does that work?

I think almost all skaters have at least a basic exhibition planned, though some skaters (even high ranking ones) just use one of their competitive programs set to different music. Ilinyk and Zhiganshin did that this year for example.
 
Sometimes it looks they put on a favorite piece of music and just skate around to it.

The first time Yamaguchi and Galindo medalled as a pair at Junior Worlds, they were completely unprepared because they did not expect to medal. They threw together an exhibition to Cats with cat costumes made of this and that between the FS and the EX, and it was a surprisingly good effort. If the commentators had not described what they did, I would never have suspected that it was nearly adlibbed.

I saw this on Canadian TV back in the day, and have been looking for a vid of it for years, but so far no luck.

I believe that the requirement for an EX that is different from the competitive skates is spelled out in the announcements for many events.
 
Now that you mention this, I wonder if quite a lot of skaters have records split into different identities on Stats On Ice, as we've seen different English transliterations such as Lipnitskaia/Lipnitskaya and Tuktamisheva/Tuktamysheva.

There are a whole pile of them. Like, the Polish Ice Dance partnership between Natalia Kaliszek and Maksym Spodyriev had FOUR different profiles, because of competitions transliterating his name from the Cyrillic in different ways (in case anybody didn't realise, he is Ukrainian).

But, over the past couple of months, I have been letting Curran know whenever I come across duplicate profiles, and he has been very good in merging them together (including Nat and Max). Although, he did say that he is still trying to work out the best way to deal with skaters that have switched countries. He told me that has an idea, but says it is going to take an awful lot of work.

Shortly after this, I found out that he was competing in US Nationals, and realised that he had more important things to concentrate on. So, I haven't been bothering him about the database for about a while.

Incidentally, I think the examples you used (Julia and Liza) did have multiple profiles, but because the transliteration issues were well known, their profiles were merged months ago. Long before I found out how to report things!

CaroLiza_fan
 
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A stupid ( :slink: ) or lazy question: how do you report things to Curran?

This question of multiple spellings creating confusion and multiple records is an important one to me. I would like to see the definitive spelling for each skater be the one the ISU uses, but we keep getting different ones, especially in names transliterated from Cyrillic. Eventually, every ISU sanctioned competition attaches a result, regardless of country represented, to a single profile.

Here's Katarina Kulgeyko's results, showing both USA and ISR, for example:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00013339.htm

It works in dance, too.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00007558.htm

Zlobina & Sitnikov skated for bot AZE and RUS.
 
A stupid ( :slink: ) or lazy question: how do you report things to Curran?

When you go into a profile, below the biographical section, there are three buttons. A Blue button to compare skaters head-to-head; a Yellow button labelled "Search Stats"; and a Green button labelled "Add/update".

It is the Green button you want. It takes you to the "Contribute Data" page. (Actually, I never noticed it until there now, but there is a link to it at the bottom of every page as well, labelled "Contact/Contribute").

There are 5 options, each of which takes you to a different form. I usually just use "Contact", as it seems to be a catch-all form that is not for specific things.

And then, just fill it out. It has a big box for your message, so I usually put a whole pile of things into the one form, so that I am not clogging up his inbox! ;) :laugh:

This question of multiple spellings creating confusion and multiple records is an important one to me. I would like to see the definitive spelling for each skater be the one the ISU uses, but we keep getting different ones, especially in names transliterated from Cyrillic. Eventually, every ISU sanctioned competition attaches a result, regardless of country represented, to a single profile.

Here's Katarina Kulgeyko's results, showing both USA and ISR, for example:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00013339.htm

It works in dance, too.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00007558.htm

Zlobina & Sitnikov skated for bot AZE and RUS.

I think Curran is working towards the same goal of having everybody listed by their ISU accepted spellings. But when you have as many as 32,672 profiles, it would take forever to go through them all individually looking for mistakes!

He was extremely grateful when I told him about all the profiles that Zoe Jones had under her various surnames. Because, when you are looking at tables of results, there is no way of knowing that Zoe Jones, Zoe Wood and Zoe Wilkinson are all the same person. Although, in this case, he used her current married name (Wilkinson) rather than her maiden name which the ISU uses (Jones). But, she hasn't done any ISU competitions since before her first wedding, so that is probably why they still have her as Jones.

As for the examples you used, yes the Competition Results pages list which country they were representing at each competition. But, the main Bio page itself only has the most recent country the skater represented under their name.

Katarina Kulgeyko
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013339.htm

Zlobina & Sitnikov
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00007558.htm

Although, when looking up ISU Bios for US Nationals, I did notice that a few profiles for partnerships did have the partners listed as representing different countries to each other. Which I thought was funny looking, given the system that we have where skaters represent countries, as opposed to representing themselves, or their clubs, etc.

But, for a private enterprise like Stats On Ice, I think that Curran has done a great job. Hey, it says a lot when a mere skater can do something off his own bat that the might of the ISU can't even be bothered doing. (I said it before at least a year ago, but the ISU Results site badly needs to be overhauled and turned into a fully searchable database).

Anyway, I hope this has helped to answer your questions

CaroLiza_fan
 
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Where can I find the world standing/world ranking of early 2000s?

How was the skate order in the GP series determined in the early 2000s?
 
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I was wondering how the number of skaters each country is allowed to send to worlds is determined. Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation, but I think it has left out one little wrinkle. It says that if the country sends two or three skaters (in one discipline), and the total placements of the top two is 28 or less, then the country gets two places the following year. But I believe in the ladies competition thread last year, it was explained that it's a bit more complicated than that. If the "second" skater from the country makes it to the long program, then there is some fixed value substituted for their actual place in this calculation (if their actual place is bigger than the fixed value).

Can anyone confirm that, and tell me what that substitution is? It came up in the discussion of Alaine Chartrand and Canada's places. Canada got two places based on Chartrand's 11 th place finish, though Daleman's actual place would have made the total too big, because of the substitution.
 
I was wondering how the number of skaters each country is allowed to send to worlds is determined. Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation, but I think it has left out one little wrinkle. It says that if the country sends two or three skaters (in one discipline), and the total placements of the top two is 28 or less, then the country gets two places the following year. But I believe in the ladies competition thread last year, it was explained that it's a bit more complicated than that. If the "second" skater from the country makes it to the long program, then there is some fixed value substituted for their actual place in this calculation (if their actual place is bigger than the fixed value).

Can anyone confirm that, and tell me what that substitution is? It came up in the discussion of Alaine Chartrand and Canada's places. Canada got two places based on Chartrand's 11 th place finish, though Daleman's actual place would have made the total too big, because of the substitution.

First of all, it is wrong to say that Canada got two spots based on Chartrand's 11th place finish (if the intended meaning is that the two spots are based only on Chartrand's 11th place finish).

Daleman's results DID make a difference btwn one spot vs. two spots for 2016.

Hypothetically, if Daleman's SP placement had been below 24th, Canada would have earned only one spot for 2016.
She would not have qualified for the FS.
And she would have received 18 placement points.
18 + 11 = 29, exceeding the maximum of 28 points necessary for two spots.

In fact, Daleman received 16 placement points. (She placed 21st overall, and received 16 placement points.)
16 + 11 = 27, so Canada earned two spots.

The rules from the ISU:
Competitors who were entered for the Short Program/Short Dance, but did not qualify for the Free Skating/Free Dance, will be awarded 18 points for Single Skating and the number of points equal to their placement in Short Program/Short Dance for Pair Skating/Ice Dance (however if this placement is lower than 18, only 18 points will be awarded). Competitors who qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance, but were not placed higher than 16th place in the final result will be awarded 16 points (or the number of points equal to the number of Competitors if the number of Competitors entered is less than 16 in cases of withdrawals not specified in the paragraph below).
However the Competitors who withdrew because of:
- illness or injury, (provided this illness or injury is certified by the ISU Medical Advisor) or
- unexpected damage to the equipment during the warm up or the performance (provided this damage of the equipment is certified by the Referee), are not considered as entered for the purpose of this Rule if they did not start or finish the Free Skating/Free Dance, but were among the top ten (10) in the Short Program/Short Dance.


Lest anyone wonder:
Hypothetically, if Chartrand had been the only Canadian in the ladies event, her 11th place finish would have earned only one spot for 2016.
If a country has only one entry in a discipline, tenth place (at least) is necessary for two spots (and second place [at least] is necessary for three spots).​

(Maybe it is just me, but IMO, the word "substitution" is not helpful to grasping the rules. The concept to me is that those who end up below a certain placement all receive the same number of placement points.)
 
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To summarize what you're saying about how to determine World championship places for single skating where there are two or more skaters for a country are:

Add together "placement points" for top two skaters where "placement points" are:
18 for skaters who didn't make long program
16 or actual placement, whichever is less (better), for those who did make the long program

Wikipedia talks about skater placements, but in fact you're using "placement points" that are sometime the same as actual placements, and sometimes are not.

Is that correct?

I'm sorry I offended you by using the word substitution. What I was asking for is "what number is used, if it is smaller than the actual placement", and you've answered that: "18 if the skater doesn't qualify for the long program, 16 if he/she does".

I did realize that Daleman helped secure the spot by skating and qualifying for the long program. I gave the example because I wanted to give context to the question.
 
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... Wikipedia talks about skater placements, but in fact you're using "placement points" that are sometime the same as actual placements, and sometimes are not. ...

... I'm sorry I offended you by using the word substitution. ...

You didn't "offend" me by using the word "substitution."
What I meant is that it is non-intuitive to me to think of the rules as "substituting" placements with another number.

It is more intuitive to me to think of "placement points" -- which are determined by placements, although not necessarily equal to placements.
The ISU language itself refers to "points" -- which I call "placement points," in the interest of clarity.

Your first post's wording re Chartrand came across as negating Daleman's role entirely.
I didn't like the wording partly because Daleman in fact did make a contribution (and I am happy that your second post did say so clearly); and partly because to me it only adds confusion when looking at other combinations of placements of two entries from one country.

Again, I'm not "offended" by anything you have said.

But the goal of your original post seemed to be to demystify the "fine print" of the rules.
In my post, I used the wording and emphasis that I thought would do the best job of demystifying.
 
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