How do federations influence the results?

[sowcow]

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I've read a lot of grumbling and complaining about the judging this past weekend at Skate Canada:

► The scores were too high!
► The scores were too low!
► The tech panel was too strict!
► The tech panel let things slide!
► Etc. Etc.
​

Plus the usual (over)dose of complaints related to 'over-scoring' (...inflation anyone?) and 'under-marking' (...with a side of Miyahara?).

All kidding aside, some of the most over-the-top claims involve the supposed influence wielded by the host Federations themselves at their respective Grand Prix events. You know the type ... accusations like:

• At Skate America last weekend, the USFSA made sure that certain 'Team USA' skaters received undeserved 'bonus' points! Or how...
• SkateCanada directed the technical panels to be extremely harsh in calling out UR's (under rotations) — especially for Japanese skaters.

The worst part is that these sorts of accusations are made at EVERY competition, in ALL disciplines, for EACH segment of the event ... ALWAYS!!

So I ask you ...

• Where is the evidence?
  • There must be mountains of it considering the extreme frequency with which such untoward influence continues to be wielded by the host Federations!
  • Why has no one come forward and exposed these 'dirty to the core' Federations?
  • Why have no 'secret audio tapes' been released to the media?
  • Why? Why?
• I think I know the answer...
  • It's because 99% of the time it's imagined. It's nonsense. Just a lot of bull$hit!

Do you disagree? Then please, explain it to me...

• How do host Federations go about influencing the results/scores at their respective events?

---

BTW, I was inspired to start this thread having just finished a response to a specific (and ridiculous) accusation leveled at Skate Canada. Rather than summarize my response, I instead have reproduced (copy & pasted) it below. Keep in mind, this particular accusation was just one of hundreds(?) of similarly outrageous accusations made this past weekend against the SkateCanada Federation.

For those who've not yet read the Skate Canada review thread — where many of these crazy accusations continue to fester — not to worry, there will be plenty more accusations of a similar nature next weekend (although this time aimed at the Russian Federation!!).

:hpull:
​

I just hope that it will be the last time that Satoko competed for Skate Canada. The experience was too harsh for her and other Japanese delegates. I think they are trying to uplift the Canadian skaters by bringing down the Japanese. Just sad! I hope she will make it big in the NHK and to the Grand Prix Final eventually. Much love for Satoko!

So, you're claiming that...

1. Skate Canada knowingly planned, plotted, and schemed to "bring down the Japanese".
2. For the Ladies Free Skate event, Skate Canada utilized their lone judge (a.k.a. 'secret agent') on the panel to coerce and/or manipulate other event officials to bring about the downfall of the Japanese competitors.
3. And lastly, that Skate Canada — that most guile, cunning and deceitful of federations — not only pulled off the same feat the day before for the Short Program segment, but were similarly successfully for both the Men's Short and Free Skate events too.

Come on, that's just ridiculous!! :furious:

Skate Canada is NOT "trying to uplift the Canadian skaters by bringing down the Japanese". How would Skate Canada even pull off such a plan when they DON'T even control the selection of the judges/officials at their own competition! One need only review the list of officials for any competition segment to realize what you're claiming is utter nonsense. For example:

Skate Canada 2016 - Ladies Free Program - Officials:

Referee | Mr. Paolo PIZZOCARI | ITA
Technical Controller | Ms. Mona ADOLFSEN | NOR
Technical Specialist | Mr. Michael HOPFES | MEX
Assistant Technical Specialist | Ms. Elena SAVOSTOVA | BLR

Judge No.1 | Ms. Lolita LABUNSKAIYA | RUS
Judge No.2 | Mr. Andreas WALDECK | GER
Judge No.3 | Ms. Saodat NUMANOVA | UZB
Judge No.4 | Ms. Katarina HENRIKSSON | SWE
Judge No.5 | Ms. Karen HOWARD | CAN
Judge No.6 | Mr. Feng HUANG | CHN
Judge No.7 | Ms. Chihee RHEE | KOR
Judge No.8 | Ms. Anne CAMMETT | USA
Judge No.9 | Mr. Kenji AMAKO | JPN


...The accusatory rhetoric by many [not just you Heero Yui; my post is not meant to single you out] is really getting to be over-the-top!!

Breathe deeply everyone.eace:

 

[TGee]

Just to add in some factual background...

Host countries [the Organizing ISU Members] do invite the judges panels based on a process ageed with the ISU.....So host countries do have some role in choosing the panels, although further along it says that for the GP Final the countries are selected for the panels, but the federations put forward the names of the qualified judge from their countries.

ISU 2016 GP announcement http://static.isu.org/media/351567/gp-general-announcement-2016_17-final.pdf

7.2 ISU Appointed Officials

The ISU President will appoint all Officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, AssistantTechnical Specialists, Data & Replay Operators, and OAC members who serve from home) for eachindividual event and the Final in accordance with the ISU Regulations 2016. In line with Article 37, paragraph3 of the ISU Constitution, the ISU Council will also assign an ISU Representative to each individual ISUGrand Prix of Figure Skating event.The ISU Secretariat will inform the Organizing ISU Member of the names of the Officials and ISURepresentatives assigned to their events. No changes will be accepted unless confirmed by the ISUSecretariat.

7.3 Panel of Judges

The panel of Judges in each individual event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating will consist of 9 Judgesof different ISU Members in each discipline if possible, but not less than 7 Judges. Only International or ISUJudges are eligible to serve in the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events. Each Judge may participate inno more than two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events plus the ISU Grand Prix of Skating Final.The Organizing ISU Members will invite the Judges based on a procedure agreed with the ISU.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Questions:

1. If you were a high level judge qualified for international ISU events, what would it take for you to do a foreign federation's bidding?

2. What can and would a federation offer to foreign ISU judges to get them to do its bidding? How does it avoid detection and consequences if such corruption is exposed with evidences?

3. Is it a wise investment for federations to allocate their resources to influence judges as opposed to investing in the development of their skaters? To effect the desired results, they need to have a large number of judges on side at each competition since the highest and lowest scores will be thrown out. It must take a lot of effort and costs to seek out corruptible judges, to make deals, and to organize the influence for an event.

4. Skating federations do not have the kind of resources as players in the political arenas. They are not big profitable corporations nor governing and organizing bodies of major and extremely lucrative sports. How do they find money and wield the alleged powers?

5. How do federations compete with each other in influence peddling? Again, how much resource do they have to compete in such endeavor?

Just a few of the questions in my simple naive mind when it seems many are in the know of such facts.

 

[moriel]

Questions:

1. If you were a high level judge qualified for international ISU events, what would it take for you to do a foreign federation's bidding?

2. What can and would a federation offer to foreign ISU judges to get them to do its bidding? How does it avoid detection and consequences if such corruption is exposed with evidences?

3. Is it a wise investment for federations to allocate their resources to influence judges as opposed to investing in the development of their skaters? To effect the desired results, they need to have a large number of judges on side at each competition since the highest and lowest scores will be thrown out. It must take a lot of effort and costs to seek out corruptible judges, to make deals, and to organize the influence for an event.

4. Skating federations do not have the kind of resources as players in the political arenas. They are not big profitable corporations nor governing and organizing bodies of major and extremely lucrative sports. How do they find money and wield the alleged powers?

5. How do federations compete with each other in influence peddling? Again, how much resource do they have to compete in such endeavor?

Just a few of the questions in my simple naive mind when it seems many are in the know of such facts.

1. Dunno. Depends. If they offer me a LOT of money, i may not resist.
As far as i know, judges dont get much money for their job, so you wouldnt really need MUCH to bribe one.

2. I suppose they could offer either money or some other sort of benefit, or they can work out a deal. I suppose exchanges are possible: for example, a japanese judge giving higher scores to french in dance, and a french judge giving higher scores to a japanese lady in singles. (Countries are used just as a made up example, no evidence anyone is doing it)

3. A deal such as described in (2) will not take resources from fed (since disciplines can be defined in such a way that the deal wont mess up with your own skaters - for example, japanese dont have pairs or dance teams that have solid medal chances on big events, so helping a foreign team to win in those disciplines won´t mess up your own skaters. (Countries are used just as a made up example, no evidence anyone is doing it)

4. So they dont really *need* money to do shady stuff. I also suppose they could technically do those support exchanges between different sports (ex figure skating and speed skating)


I´m not saying this is how they cheat, but if i was a fed and wanted to cheat, i would try something like that

 

[Violet Bliss]

With no offense intended to moriel, the deal making strategies are not hard to dream up and so would be easy to detect as well. A lot of allegations have been thrown, but will some proponent(s) please submit supporting data to bring them to the open?

 

[TGee]

1. Dunno. Depends. If they offer me a LOT of money, i may not resist.
As far as i know, judges dont get much money for their job, so you wouldnt really need MUCH to bribe one.

I´m not saying this is how they cheat, but if i was a fed and wanted to cheat, i would try something like that

I on the other hand think that it would take an incredible sum, or some extreme external pressure to tempt a judge.

Judges are volunteers that put hundreds and thousands of volunteer hours to reach the level of ISU credentials to judge at GP events....

I see the judges in our region, some of whom are rated to the highest ISU levels, but still just show up to watch the little ones or judge simulations before major competitions. I sincerely believe that they are putting in all this time do because they love the sport, that they believe that excellence in judging advances the sport and they get immense self satisfaction from participating in the judging process.

I also hear between the lines that judges want to rise through the ranks to not only be qualified as and selected for GP events, but more to reach the level of being a judge for ISU Worlds or the Olympics. Why risk the opportunity to advance as a judge for any kind of monetary bribe at the GP level?

The opportunities to be selected Worlds or the Olympic Games are even more rare than the opportunities to skate in them (9 judges per discipline vs 25 or more competitors).

This is the elite for the judges too....and IMO this is where they want to be, and anything that would put that at risk would seem less than rational....

 

[andromache]

I think there is some politicking in figure skating, but probably not as much as there used to be.

As for home GP skaters getting an advantage, I think the impact that the excitement of a crowd can have on a judge is generally vastly underestimated. Sure, judges are trying to be as objective as possible regardless of audience reaction, but they are being unconsciously impacted by the positive emotions of the crowd. Plus, there's something intangible that a skater skating well at home exudes as well that makes their performance more joyous.

And, well, maybe all the federations agree that it's better for home skaters to place higher at their home events because it's good for the audience, and if the audiences have a great time maybe they'll invest more time/money in the sport.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As for home GP skaters getting an advantage, I think the impact that the excitement of a crowd can have on a judge is generally vastly underestimated. Sure, judges are trying to be as objective as possible regardless of audience reaction, but they are being unconsciously impacted by the positive emotions of the crowd. Plus, there's something intangible that a skater skating well at home exudes as well that makes their performance more joyous.

I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. The judges are not robots. They can be persuaded that a program was better than it was with a wild audience reaction. That reaction doesn't translate to the telecast, usually.

 

[mrrice]

Questions:

1. If you were a high level judge qualified for international ISU events, what would it take for you to do a foreign federation's bidding?

2. What can and would a federation offer to foreign ISU judges to get them to do its bidding? How does it avoid detection and consequences if such corruption is exposed with evidences?

3. Is it a wise investment for federations to allocate their resources to influence judges as opposed to investing in the development of their skaters? To effect the desired results, they need to have a large number of judges on side at each competition since the highest and lowest scores will be thrown out. It must take a lot of effort and costs to seek out corruptible judges, to make deals, and to organize the influence for an event.

4. Skating federations do not have the kind of resources as players in the political arenas. They are not big profitable corporations nor governing and organizing bodies of major and extremely lucrative sports. How do they find money and wield the alleged powers?

5. How do federations compete with each other in influence peddling? Again, how much resource do they have to compete in such endeavor?

Just a few of the questions in my simple naive mind when it seems many are in the know of such facts.

These are great questions and I have a couple of answers from my experiences as a dance judge and former coach. As a Judge, I was particularly interested in clear formations, and the transitions into and out of "Featured" moments. I am very disappointed in skaters who don't have good ice coverage. I love Tuk but, her new FP has really shallow patterns and minimal ice coverage. Contrast Tuk's LP with Mariah Bell's. She owes Rohene a GIANT muffin basket because he really created a masterpiece to a piece of music that has been used "Successfully" by several top level skaters. Including Michelle Kwan. Even John Coughlin and Caydee Denny used it.

 

[gkelly]

1. Dunno. Depends. If they offer me a LOT of money, i may not resist.
As far as i know, judges dont get much money for their job, so you wouldnt really need MUCH to bribe one.

They don't get any money directly for judging.
At elite events, they do get treated nicely -- good hotels, free food and drink of good quality, transportation paid for, sometimes sightseeing opportunities near the venue, sometimes nice gifts from the hosts.

But mainly, as TGee points out, the feeling of being special, having attained the status of an international judge.

Because it's an unpaid, volunteer opportunity, albeit sometimes with nice perks, most judges who get to that level are pretty comfortable financially in their real lives, from their day jobs or family money/investments, etc. Whatever they live on to support themselves would also be enough to cover a demanding hobby that involves frequent travel at their own expense to get started and with not much more than their expenses covered once they're actually judging.

These aren't people living hand to mouth for whom an extra few hundred or few thousand would make it worth risking the opportunity to continue judging.

2. I suppose they could offer either money or some other sort of benefit, or they can work out a deal. I suppose exchanges are possible: for example, a japanese judge giving higher scores to french in dance, and a french judge giving higher scores to a japanese lady in singles. (Countries are used just as a made up example, no evidence anyone is doing it)

3. A deal such as described in (2) will not take resources from fed (since disciplines can be defined in such a way that the deal wont mess up with your own skaters - for example, japanese dont have pairs or dance teams that have solid medal chances on big events, so helping a foreign team to win in those disciplines won´t mess up your own skaters. (Countries are used just as a made up example, no evidence anyone is doing it)

That's more likely. There have certainly been allegations of that kind of deal making throughout the history of the sport, probably some true and some imagined. A large motivation behind the introduction of IJS and of anonymous judging (two separate things) was to make it harder and less rewarding for judges or federations to make those kinds of deals.

But that wouldn't explain home ice advantage. If there is a quid pro quo, the home skaters wouldn't be the only ones to benefit.

 

[noidont]

Federations choose the tech panel at GPs, which can be a major hedge. It doesn't always work to host skaters' favors, but there is perhaps an idea behind choosing such a panel. For example, a tough panel like SC had levels the playing field a bit for Canadian skaters who are not exactly consistent. NHK would be within its right to choose a panel that isn't throwing < around like halloween candies.

 

[moriel]

With no offense intended to moriel, the deal making strategies are not hard to dream up and so would be easy to detect as well. A lot of allegations have been thrown, but will some proponent(s) please submit supporting data to bring them to the open?

I´m not making allegations, as i claimed several times, i´m just giving examples of possible strategies =)

 

[Greta]

This instagram account has been breaking down the scoring in an interesting way: https://www.instagram.com/skatingprotocol/

I would recommend the book The Second Mark for a look at how one instance of flawed judging came about.

 

[moriel]

They don't get any money directly for judging.
At elite events, they do get treated nicely -- good hotels, free food and drink of good quality, transportation paid for, sometimes sightseeing opportunities near the venue, sometimes nice gifts from the hosts.

But mainly, as TGee points out, the feeling of being special, having attained the status of an international judge.

Because it's an unpaid, volunteer opportunity, albeit sometimes with nice perks, most judges who get to that level are pretty comfortable financially in their real lives, from their day jobs or family money/investments, etc. Whatever they live on to support themselves would also be enough to cover a demanding hobby that involves frequent travel at their own expense to get started and with not much more than their expenses covered once they're actually judging.

These aren't people living hand to mouth for whom an extra few hundred or few thousand would make it worth risking the opportunity to continue judging.



That's more likely. There have certainly been allegations of that kind of deal making throughout the history of the sport, probably some true and some imagined. A large motivation behind the introduction of IJS and of anonymous judging (two separate things) was to make it harder and less rewarding for judges or federations to make those kinds of deals.

But that wouldn't explain home ice advantage. If there is a quid pro quo, the home skaters wouldn't be the only ones to benefit.

Well, for GP, for example, they could do a simple thing:
we have 6 GP events. Ofc, each of those countries wants their skaters to win at home because tickets and fans. Easy to work it out ^^

+ maybe some sort of general strategy that got shady and twisted: when a skater wins at home, that support the sport at that location: local people see their own winning, they put their kids to train, they pay tickets and so on. This is why there are host picks and stuff like that. Also, the country that organizes it puts some money on it spends some money on it.
So i suppose it could got shady in a way that there is some general idea that local skaters should get a little up at home because of all this and it could affect the judging.
Judges could think stuff like: "ok, this competition happens, we come here, stay in nice hotels, watch cool skaters, but if local skaters keep losing, they may discontinue it at some point, lets give some extra ++"

I dunno =)

And ofc there is the legit effect of home crowd: there is a difference in perception when 2 skaters skate the same, but one gets polite claps and another roaring standing ovation. So for example could impact the judges perception of some PCs categories, as one skater would seem to not connect with crowd and not perform so well.
It happens even with the best audiences.

(again, i´m just being paranoid and not making actual claims).

 

[Osmond4gold]

I think some fans of figure skating get easily frustrated when skaters other then their favorites, perform to a higher standard and judges reward this accordingly.

An example, ...this weekend, it was predicted by many that the ladies Gold/Silver medals were a given. If you look at the Predictions threads, fans proclaimed the "REAL" competition would be for positions 3-7, as Meds and Satoko were untouchable. Well, the reality of competitions is that anything can/will happen and no person should be discounted (ie Mariah Bell, Kaetlyn Osmond, cases in point).

Rather than accept what the panel have interpreted, they would rather blame the judges, the scoring system, federations, and even skaters as somehow not trustworthy, when results do not go a certain way.

Does the hometown audience help an athlete...you bet! The same can be said of baseball (go Cubs!), basketball and hockey, where most teams have a better record at home, then on the road. Funny, how fans forget this when the scores are announced.

 

[TGee]

Federations choose the tech panel at GPs, which can be a major hedge. It doesn't always work to host skaters' favors, but there is perhaps an idea behind choosing such a panel. For example, a tough panel like SC had levels the playing field a bit for Canadian skaters who are not exactly consistent. NHK would be within its right to choose a panel that isn't throwing < around like halloween candies.

While this is a possibility, my view is that differences in judging priorities across countries is the biggest factor. Not wanting to cross post, so request that folks who haven't seen it take a look at my analysis on his point on the "Opinion of SC" thread.

Frankly, given how Skate Canada is pressing internally for very tough assessments from the very lowest level up in this quadrennial, choosing anything but a tough technical panel would be inconsistent and would send a conflicting message to domestic skaters and coaches.

e.g at the very lowest level of freeskate events, STAR 1, before kids begin doing programs and quite a bit before ranking in competitions is allowed, a jump that is not fully rotated or does not have a correct one foot landing held for at least 1 second is automatically downgraded.....

Here's a public video.....you can pause on the scorecard at the end to see the criteria...

https://vimeo.com/album/4103754/video/179454264

 

[Violet Bliss]

I´m not making allegations, as i claimed several times, i´m just giving examples of possible strategies =)

I didn't mean you made allegations but that such allegations have been quite common, thus I'm interested in seeing analyzed data being presented as support if not actual evidence.

 

[sneakers]

home skaters got Inflation in skate america, same happened in skate canada, it will happen by Papadakis / Cizeron in France , same goes for home skaters in Russia and Japan.

 

[TGee]

home skaters got Inflation in skate america, same happened in skate canada, it will happen by Papadakis / Cizeron in France , same goes for home skaters in Russia and Japan.

We are seeking to get away from unsubstantiated assertions in this thread.

You are saying that there was "inflation".

Please provide evidence.....:scratch3:

And we are seeking more than just that the host country has more skaters on the podium. Host countries get three host picks, and the podium placers at Worlds get their picks after that....so on a statistical basis we can expect countries get more folks on the podium at the events they host....

 

[moriel]

I didn't mean you made allegations but that such allegations have been quite common, thus I'm interested in seeing analyzed data being presented as support if not actual evidence.

There was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal

Probably there are tons of less blatant cases and all, but since currently judging is anonimous, we cannot follow it.
Once they start saying which judge gave what marks, this could be easily tracked.
For example, you could take each mark and see what judges gave positive evaluation to a skater (compared to the average mark), and then see if there is any pattern for different skaters (for example, judges of country A tend to give above average GOE to skaters from country B).