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And I find Medvedeva's use of sound effects of people in a terrorist attack beyond tasteless. It's total exploitation and boycott-worthy.
Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine
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And I find Medvedeva's use of sound effects of people in a terrorist attack beyond tasteless. It's total exploitation and boycott-worthy.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I have no problems with skating routines to movie soundtracks, or portraying movie characters, or telling a story that comes from a movie - but there's a certain amount of nuance required. Skaters shouldn't be "acting out" parts of a movie - it's cheesy no matter what the movie is, and in the case of a Holocaust film, is tasteless. If I want to watch someone act out the plot of a movie, I'll watch the movie.
Again, there are a lot of Schindler's List programs that achieve the subtlety required to do it well. There is Katarina Witt's 1994 LP. Evgenia's LP would, for me, probably wind up in this category if not for the sound effects and voiceovers. (Though I am troubled by Averbukh's attempt to make a grand, tragic, emotional statement with this LP which actually copy/pastes choreography from another program that is actually joyful - Evgenia's LP last year - it makes me question his integrity as an artist, if the actual choreography/movements mean so little to his work.)
I think Averbukh looks at what a skater can actually do and forms a program around that. So yes, the actual skating movements might not have much meaning to him, it's the little embellishments he adds that matter to him and the facial expression of the skater. Navka and Medvedeva both are very good with their facial expressions, overacting, yes, but figure skaters are allowed to do that because they have to be able to express themeselves in a big arena. Medvedeva's program is more subtle than this "Life is Beautiful" routine. But without the sound effects no one would be able to get what this program is about. It would be more weird than it is already. So regarding that this "Life is Beautiful" routine is more purposeful. And the critics didn't universally like the movie either, so it's only logical that some are offended by this routine. I'm not, not that I'm a fan either, they wanted to do something meaningful in a TV show, to remind of the Holocaust in a light way, they actually didn't fully get the movie imho but I wouldn't hold that against them.
I actually don't mind if skaters are acting parts from a movie, you can give me a nice figure skating program to the music of "La Strada" with the guy portraying Zampano and/or the lady portraying Gelsomina any day.
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Averbukh has no integrity; almost his entire career has been based off exploiting other people's tragedies. And he keeps getting rewarded for it, which is the sickening part.
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FWIW, I think this can produce an interesting discussion/debate regarding cultural definitions of artistic taste (particularly in dealing with sensitive subjects) for anyone who has any meaningful thoughts aside from dumping on US media, US liberals, etc. Literally no one here has tried to argue that US media is so great or that the US is morally superior, or has gone out of their way to bash the Russian media or Russia's own history of human rights violations. Jfc, is having a discussion without turning to blind nationalism impossible here?
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- Aug 31, 2011
I didn't read the whole thread, just the first posts, but the fact that CNN or whatever channel, puts it to 1st page, if I got it right, is open to discussion and prompts for opinions to appear here. I'm all for skating but if there are such threads here I guess everyone can comment them whether it's 'pure nationalism' or not. And btw I don't bash your media, I just don't care much
Edit: oopsie, I kinda bash it but whatever
Those are facts
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:agree: I find the topic very interesting and it would be a pity to ruin it. I'm really interested to learn how people in different countries react to commemorative programs and their reasons. I think the culture you are living, the way your country media portray a political situation can affect your way of thinking a lot. Example: I was a kid at the time of the whole Yugoslaw war and all the keys I had been offered to judge the conflict were the one portrayed by the media in my country. Growing up, I lived two years in another country where the portrayal of the episode was completely different, due to historical, political and religious ties with one of the involved countries. This made me think a lot about how the same episode can be seen in two different lights not only based on personal thinking but also as a whole country, basing on several cultural aspects.
To come back in topic, I really would be glad to know other example of commemorative programs and people opinions about them.
I believe that you are very on point that the miming and other poses in Russian choreography are interpreted or understood very differently outside Russia.
It may be different cultural traditions in dance that are at play. If one looks at Russian Vaganova ballet traditions there are iconic poses, gestures and facial expressions that seem to be thought and emulated. This is also true in theatre. Some of what seems to be repetition or miming may be use and references to these dance and theatre motifs and memes that are an understood theatric language in Russia.
But as skating is a global sport with a global audience, some of the language of choreography isn't universal. The surprise that some Russian fans have that others don't appreciate some of their skaters' choreography likely arises from expectation that others are seeing the physical language as they are.
Ice Age competitors are known to go for shock or controversy. So, in this case, it's hard to know how sincere the intent was. Having people of Jewish faith involved makes the sincerity of the intent less suspect, and it was intended for a Russian and not a global audience.
I think that there is a real risk in judging it by how folks outside the Russian cultural context read that kind of theatre. If everything to be said about the Holocaust needed to be filtered through a global artistic taste meter, the messages might never be communicated. And that would be very, very wrong.
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- Mar 29, 2016
it's interesting to read how some of my AMERICAN compatriots think they are ok to introduce art censorship against RUSSIAN TV based on their PERSONAL taste toward choreography made about holocaust by JEWISH choreographer about Holocaust for a small silly entertainment TV show? Does one think that one holds an intellectual or moral rights on mourning Holocaust in the one and the only proper way now? I kinda think it's a global tragedy and the whole world should remember about it, like about all other tragedies too. Sometimes it's too funny to read GS. :agree:
Since it was mentioned earlier here, I can tell about 'Anastasia' from personal experience, as I actually went to London to watch 'Anastasia' by MacMillan at ROH couple weeks ago. I hoped for better, but it was a good production. Typical MacMillan. I enjoyed the performance, btw. But does someone really think Russians should be offended now by a madness scene of their (alleged) tsarina in this ballet or should be concern about Bolshevik soldiers marching across the scene in a tasteless way? People don't be silly, mkey.
Should someone get offended now about a questionable sexed-up scenes and a tasteless innuendo of incest at recent attempt of adoption 'War and Peace' by BBC? I think Russians didn't care much. Some of them watched, most of the didn't. Few of them liked, but probably find it at times not too historically accurate and too pretentious at times. Well, the production is good imho, but the script is showy, garish and ostentatious a bit. Did someone got offended by it? Artists are free to interpret and exploit any subject or tragedy of the past. How successful or not they are in what they are trying to do is the whole another deal. Period.
Okay, I gotta go and read what Israeli press thinks about it...
Since it was mentioned earlier here, I can tell about 'Anastasia' from personal experience, as I actually went to London to watch 'Anastasia' by MacMillan at ROH couple weeks ago. I hoped for better, but it was a good production. Typical MacMillan. I enjoyed the performance, btw. But does someone really think Russians should be offended now by a madness scene of their (alleged) tsarina in this ballet or should be concern about Bolshevik soldiers marching across the scene in a tasteless way? People don't be silly, mkey.
Should someone get offended now about a questionable sexed-up scenes and a tasteless innuendo of incest at recent attempt of adoption 'War and Peace' by BBC? I think Russians didn't care much. Some of them watched, most of the didn't. Few of them liked, but probably find it at times not too historically accurate and too pretentious at times. Well, the production is good imho, but the script is showy, garish and ostentatious a bit. Did someone got offended by it? Artists are free to interpret and exploit any subject or tragedy of the past. How successful or not they are in what they are trying to do is the whole another deal. Period. Okay, I gotta go and read what Israeli press thinks about it...
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- Mar 23, 2014
it's interesting to read how some of my AMERICAN compatriots think they are ok to introduce art censorship against RUSSIAN TV based on their PERSONAL taste toward choreography made about holocaust by JEWISH choreographer about Holocaust for a small silly entertainment TV show? Does one think that one holds an intellectual or moral rights on mourning Holocaust in the one and the only proper way now? I kinda think it's a global tragedy and the whole world should remember about it, like about all other tragedies too. Sometimes it's too funny to read GS. :agree:
Since it was mentioned earlier here, I actually went to London to watch 'Anastasia' by MacMillan at ROH couple weeks ago. I hoped for better, but it was a good production. Typical MacMillan. I enjoyed the performance, btw. But does someone really think Russians should be offended now by a madness scene of their (alleged) tsarina in this ballet or should be concern about Bolshevik soldiers marching across the scene in a tasteless way? People don't be silly, mkey.
Okay, I gotta go and read what Israeli press thinks about it...
Uhhhhhhh literally no one here has suggested censoring anything. People can skate/perform whatever they want (well, depending on the laws in your country) and people have the right to complain about it if they think it's tasteless. Lots of Americans and probably global audiences think blackface is perfectly acceptable, and it's not illegal for them to do it. That doesn't make it good or laudable or something people shouldn't complain about. And let's remember that genocide and slavery are way bigger deals than a madness scene of a historical figure or some historical inaccuracies. They are truly not comparable, because, y'know, historical atrocities are pretty big deals.
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Well, I thinks it's our massmedia who made it too political already and not an artistic/taste issue. The moment they put such a hideous headline: "something something something wife of Putin's spokesperson something something", I think this whole deal is more about Navka - an Olympic champion, diva and incredibly attractive talented ice dancer, and about Averbukh - a Russian Jew choreographer who likes to create controversial choreography routines which sparks interest and good marks by judges worldwide. But it's actually our MSM who made it too nationalistic and cultural bashing already from the bat. So, what you see is a reaction. Besides, it's their TV, their country, their taste and cultural interpretations. Something that was not created yesterday. It goes deeper than just Vaganova or Stanislavksy School, there are centuries of evolution of their culture that brought us so many composers and writers. Why our silly massmedia is making it about Puitn or even mentioning him in the context of this silly TV show? Just because of Navka's second marriage? It's actually our press who are making it too politicized and even invasive in artistic taste and even in personal life in way too. Seems like our press is back to medieval inquisition time of ecclesiastical tribunal. It's not like they hold a monopoly on aesthetics for the the whole world, there are other world of at least 3 bln people outside of our what we call "free world" which might have different opinions. As of lately our press is a bit disgustingly biased in so many ways. Are you trying to see this mater from this perspective?
I enjoy reading your opinions here, btw. A lot. Thank you. *hat off*
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- Mar 23, 2014
Your use of the phrase "tragedy porn" has encouraged me to share this article: https://varunambrose.com/2012/02/17/death-puppies-and-viral-content-the-case-against-tragedy-porn/ which I think usefully articulates the negative feelings many of us have toward this program.
Those of you who do not find it to be in bad taste or offensive - please at least try to see it from the other perspective. I certainly understand yours: "it's art, people do what they want, why should we be offended by everything? won't being offended by everything prevent us from speaking about anything?" It's a careful balance between accepting/celebrating everything and censoring everything that I advocate, IMO. Let the artists do what they want, and let us criticize them for it.
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- Mar 23, 2014
You're very right that making it about Putin was wrong of CNN. Personally, I'm more interested in discussing the program rather than CNN's take on it, which doesn't interest me. (And this is, after all, a skating board, not the politics board.) But you're right, I wasn't thinking about people responding negatively to the CNN article, and for that I apologize.
And also FWIW, I respect and admire Russia's long history of brilliant choreographers and composers. Some of the only warhorses I never tire of are from Russian composers, and I love Russian ballet, as well as the choreography of many Russian choreographers that have nothing in common with this program.
Every country has some kind of art or artistic tradition that many find to be offensive or tasteless. American country music about men loving their trucks and their guns and complaining about their wives and blindly celebrating American nationalism is probably offensive or tasteless to many non-American people. If they were to criticize it, would I think they were bashing American culture? No.
Criticism of art forms regardless of who or where they come from is healthy.
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- Mar 29, 2016
Well. Many other countries did not have slavery at all. Or at least slavery because of race or ethnicity. Like Russia for example and many more. You did not get it or simply does not know what is behind 'Anastasia'? Bolshevik Revolution. It was as bloody as French Revolution. Genocide, slavery, Bolshevik Revolution - how do you measure which is a "bigger deal" ? More victims? Repression? Unfair treatment? Race, religion or ethnicity based discriminations? I think there are no comparison at all. So it's pointless to compare and think of tragedies and historical events as bigger or not. I think everything is a free game for artist to exploit and interpret.
Slapping something with "tasteless" and "offensive" is too one-sided and opinionated of our press. Like I said its not like our press is holding monopoly of aesthetics or moral intellectual rights on certain tragedies or events. There are other world outside our small world who think differently. And they might disagree with the title "..... tasteless ...... (and something along the lines) wife of Putin's somebody .....". So it's seems to be extremely political and disgusting they degraded Olympic champion title of Navka to something as "wife of Putin's spokesperson". Better and more polit title would be (as they usually put towards some other controversial arts from other countries sometimes) something like this: "The controversial Holocaust routine by OLympic champion sparks criticism", don't you think? But nope, they went on a limp and titled it with something really opinionated and silly. My point is there are a lot of intelligent, educated and smart people outside of our Westen World who are seeing and observing this whole unfair treatment and biased cultural bashing of Russians. Are you considering this?
I'm new here, but it's pretty obvious his forum has few particular individuals which are trigger happy to jump on bashing anything remotely related to Russia. I enjoy when I read personal and argumentative opinion like yours on many maters which we might have completely different opinions, but at least we accept each other points of view. However, there are different personages who carry different way of behavior. Do they have a right to act and speak this way? Yes they do, but it's so low and disgusting. DIXI.
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Whenever you go out wearing an outfit like that you're supposed to know it's going to garner negative attention,
I for one, As a grandson to a Holocaust survivor, Don't find this offensive, Just either incredibly ignorant or exploitive for publicity
Which is why i think anyone who does find it offensive is very entitled to that emotion
I for one, As a grandson to a Holocaust survivor, Don't find this offensive, Just either incredibly ignorant or exploitive for publicity
Which is why i think anyone who does find it offensive is very entitled to that emotion
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Totally get that folks could be offended. From a North American lens, I personally find it offensive and cringe-worthy. But this wasn't intended for the global audience.
This piece was done by (including Russian Jews) for Russians. And so Russians, especially Russian Jews, are best able to interpret it and decide if it is offensive or not in its context. Theatre is considered by many to be the most local of the arts.
Russia Jews have had their own very difficult history, and while many Jews in North America and Israel immigrated from Russia, the voices that I most wish to listen to in this are those of Jews in Russia. The extent to which the Jewish community within Russia finds this exploitative, and that a sensational show like Ice Age isn't the way to convey the message is the key issue in my view.
I'd like to note that to me this is different from black face, as an example, because black face originated in the US and on balance US society has rejected it as offensive. It's no longer acceptable in its original cultural context. When performers in other countries carry on a tradition that is now seen as racist in its society of origin, it's unaware or insensitive at the minimum, and willfully ignorant at worse.
Here's some light reading for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia
After that you can move onto the lovely treatment of Alaska Natives in Russian America
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