2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

[Anyasnake]

No. They worked with Fabian, Igor and an Indian dance teacher on that program, and went to Madrid on the way back from Spring vacation in Moscow to see Antonio, but he didn't work on the choreo for the FD.

Really ? Because I thought this photo was the proof.

But if not, it's even worse. But it'll be hard to believe that Igor and especially FABIAN did that. Unexpected.

 

[Anyasnake]

I exclude everything going on in ladies because that is really remarkable and isolated situations. Russian dance not in same state as Russian ladies.

B/S and S/b did beat most of these teams but these teams show how they are trying to follow the winners And what the winners are doing. why can't the Russians follow what the winners are doing in dance? All Russian ice dance teams are failing and won't do what the winners are! People talk about the judges trying to help Russian teams but they can't do all the job! The teams need to go to Detroit or Canada! Russian way is failing! It's a horrible disaster. First time since ice dance is in Olympics Russian teams have no medal from the last worlds.

NO please, we were served with way to much P/C style this past year. And I'm a big fan of them and their style. ON THEM. Period. I felt like Zhulin tried to give that to B/S this year and it was a no from me.

So normally, as you grow when skating, you are supposed to find what you like or your style. D/W did really well with a lot of precise themes or powerful music. Marina gave almost the same style to V/M but it didn't suit them as much. Since Fix You, Shibsibs are finding their way, and they seem to have A LOT to say about their music, choreo (almost feels like they're running their team themselves). Cappellini/Lanotte do well the light and fun theme. Hubbell/Donohue the lyrical/romance one. P/C the lyrical/contemporary/abstract style. The list goes on.

Now people are complaining that some teams like P/C or C/L do the same every year YET if they dare do something different they dislike it. But it's not about giving a tango a year, an irish dance the next year, and next time, let's try a samba. I'm not saying that B/S should stick to one style only, but you shouldn't do what some singles do, and skate to warhorse year after year. Choose the music that you like, discuss it with your partner and your coaches. You feel confortable with your OWN choice, not something that is imposed on you. Just ask the Shibs.
I feel like for a lot of russian teams I don't see a clear connection with the music (it's here but it's not ... personnal), except when B/S skated to Anna Karenine.
That might look contradictory with what I just said about D/W, but they choosed Scheherazade because they loved it. And it showed on the ice.

 

[gmyers]

I dont see how being 5th is a "horrible disaster" or "can´t do the job". Sounds like a pretty solid result for me.
Also, it would suck if everybody trained with NA coaches, because then everybody would skate almost same things, which would be boring. There are already too few teams with personality.

Hmmm just a question... As you are so militant, why don´t you go to the US ladies and Japanese ladies threads and dont tell the fans there that US and Japanese ladies can´t do the job and its a horrible disaster and they should all train with Eteri? I´m just curious about what would happen ^^

Its a disaster because Russian number one team has always medaled at pre Olympic worlds since ice dance has been Olympic sport. This is the first time ever that Russia can't be considered to have a shot at the Olympic podium. But does Russia do anything? There's no indication it will! Almost every countries top team has North American coaches but not Russia's top teams! A formal statement from the federation that they are abandoning dance might as well come out.

IJS makes all the teams look alike anyway. What's the big deal about Russian teams looking like Montreal teams. They should want to look like Montreal because Montreal wins. Oh they are not interested in winning or doing well unless they are doing their style. Even though judges hate it. Unacceptable.

There is much more variety in ladies coaching. Many ways to success. Only way to success in dance is through North America. Medvedeva is special.

 

[gmyers]

NO please, we were served with way to much P/C style this past year. And I'm a big fan of them and their style. ON THEM. Period. I felt like Zhulin tried to give that to B/S this year and it was a no from me.

So normally, as you grow when skating, you are supposed to find what you like or your style. D/W did really well with a lot of precise themes or powerful music. Marina gave almost the same style to V/M but it didn't suit them as much. Since Fix You, Shibsibs are finding their way, and they seem to have A LOT to say about their music, choreo (almost feels like they're running their team themselves). Cappellini/Lanotte do well the light and fun theme. Hubbell/Donohue the lyrical/romance one. P/C the lyrical/contemporary/abstract style. The list goes on.

Now people are complaining that some teams like P/C or C/L do the same every year YET if they dare do something different they dislike it. But it's not about giving a tango a year, an irish dance the next year, and next time, let's try a samba. I'm not saying that B/S should stick to one style only, but you shouldn't do what some singles do, and skate to warhorse year after year. Choose the music that you like, discuss it with your partner and your coaches. You feel confortable with your OWN choice, not something that is imposed on you. Just ask the Shibs.
I feel like for a lot of russian teams I don't see a clear connection with the music (it's here but it's not ... personnal), except when B/S skated to Anna Karenine.
That might look contradictory with what I just said about D/W, but they choosed Scheherazade because they loved it. And it showed on the ice.

I am not just talking about choreo and music though that is a huge part of it. Right now in Russian dance it's totally acceptable to be completely bent at the waste and have horrible posutre. That's become part of Russian style. Being incredibly stiff kneed is also part of Russian ice dance now. Terrible edge less skating is allowed and encouraged. That's not acceptable in North America!

 

[SnowWhite]

NO please, we were served with way to much P/C style this past year. And I'm a big fan of them and their style. ON THEM. Period. I felt like Zhulin tried to give that to B/S this year and it was a no from me.

So normally, as you grow when skating, you are supposed to find what you like or your style. D/W did really well with a lot of precise themes or powerful music. Marina gave almost the same style to V/M but it didn't suit them as much. Since Fix You, Shibsibs are finding their way, and they seem to have A LOT to say about their music, choreo (almost feels like they're running their team themselves). Cappellini/Lanotte do well the light and fun theme. Hubbell/Donohue the lyrical/romance one. P/C the lyrical/contemporary/abstract style. The list goes on.

Now people are complaining that some teams like P/C or C/L do the same every year YET if they dare do something different they dislike it. But it's not about giving a tango a year, an irish dance the next year, and next time, let's try a samba. I'm not saying that B/S should stick to one style only, but you shouldn't do what some singles do, and skate to warhorse year after year. Choose the music that you like, discuss it with your partner and your coaches. You feel confortable with your OWN choice, not something that is imposed on you. Just ask the Shibs.
I feel like for a lot of russian teams I don't see a clear connection with the music (it's here but it's not ... personnal), except when B/S skated to Anna Karenine.
That might look contradictory with what I just said about D/W, but they choosed Scheherazade because they loved it. And it showed on the ice.

??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.

 

[Ares]

??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.

Maybe they could lure at least one of those working in NA to Russia? Many of them are ethnic Russian after all. Being dominant for years bit Russians back after developing great teams & coaches in their own country. They eventually left and started developing Ice Dance in foreign centres.

 

[SnowWhite]

Maybe they could lure at least one of those working in NA to Russia? Many of them are ethnic Russian after all.

You never know, but I think Marina and Igor seem pretty happy with the schools they've built in NA.

 

[Ares]

You never know, but I think Marina and Igor seem pretty happy with the schools they've built in NA.

The last top not-Russian or Eastern European team that used to train in Russia that spring to my mind is Pechalat / Bourzat. They were coached by Zhulin ... ?

I don't expect Marina / Igor to start making closer connection with Russians again in any case. Maybe someone else?

 

[Anyasnake]

??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.

I wasn't very clear I think. What I wanted to say was that Marina gave a lot of very different programs for both teams, so you could really see that they were versatile. It could be Malher (lyrical) or Carmen (more powerful). And the similarities were more in the way they moved in their programs : D/W and V/M had "russian style" programs, or maybe just "Marina style" . Their natural way of moving couldn't be more different, yet, between 2009-2014, it was very much more about athleticism (which is why I said powerful). Which is fine, but it suits D/W better, because V/M are more like natural dancers. And during that time I saw more 'dancing' with V/M than with D/W for example.
Having said that, V/M should be glad they got to do such different dances at the time because it is REALLY helping them now. Experience always shows.

But your guys are right about levels, the basics skating skills are the foundation of great skating. It never leaves you.

 

[Anyasnake]

The last top not-Russian or Eastern European team that used to train in Russia that spring to my mind is Pechalat / Bourzat. They were coached by Zhulin ... ?

I don't expect Marina / Igor to start making closer connection with Russians again in any case. Maybe someone else?

Isn't Morozov between New Jersey and Moscow ?

 

[SnowWhite]

I wasn't very clear I think. What I wanted to say was that Marina gave a lot of very different programs for both teams, so you could really see that they were versatile. It could be Malher (lyrical) or Carmen (more powerful). And the similarities were more in the way they moved in their programs : D/W and V/M had "russian style" programs, or maybe just "Marina style" . Their natural way of moving couldn't be more different, yet, between 2009-2014, it was very much more about athleticism (which is why I said powerful). Which is fine, but it suits D/W better, because V/M are more like natural dancers. And during that time I saw more 'dancing' with V/M than with D/W for example.
Having said that, V/M should be glad they got to do such different dances at the time because it is REALLY helping them now. Experience always shows.

But your guys are right about levels, the basics skating skills are the foundation of great skating. It never leaves you.

Oh okay, yeah then I don't disagree.

 

[moriel]

Isn't Morozov between New Jersey and Moscow ?

But then he dosnt have any top teams atm except for W/P, but they just arrived and we yet need to see how it goes for them.
(btw, speaking of non russian teams training in Russia, W/P)

But i dont really see him being much better than Zhulin.

 

[gmyers]

??? There were some similarities because it was Marina, but I never found V/M and D/W to skate super similar styles. And "a lot of precise themes or powerful music" isn't really how I'd describe V/M's style. The most obvious difference of course would be that their programs tended to feature much more romance than D/W, which suited them just fine. Besides, V/M have always been a versatile team, especially compared to teams like P/C and C/L (not criticizing these teams, I like them both a lot). That's why they tend to excel in the SD. Of their FD's, I've seen a lot of fans list these as their favourite: Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Mahler, Carmen and sometimes Hip Hip Chin Chin. Pretty different styles in there.

Anyways, back on topic, I agree that every team shouldn't try to do the same style. It does get sort of boring. I think the issues with levels with the Russian teams are much more important than the style. The comments you hear from some of their coaches, essentially saying levels aren't real or are just politics make it look like they don't get it. And maybe this isn't actually true, but if the coaches don't get/believe in levels or whatever, that's a major problem. And also, I think the quality of the coach matters more than location. I don't know enough about most of the coaches coaching in Russia to make any judgements about how good they are, but it does seem pretty clear that Marina, Igor and the Montreal team are all great coaches, so if they are better than the Russian coaches, then there would be an advantage to working with them, politics aside.

If a coach is in Russia they are more likely to do what federation says and even horrifyingly take the advice of Tarasova! Everyone must acknowledge that Tarasova influence has destroyed many programs in recent years! You must be able to ignore federation politics - unlikely as they are providing $$$$ - and ignore destructive awful Tarasova! Like her adding of tosca to everything or four seasons to everything.

 

[lauravvv]

If a coach is in Russia they are more likely to do what federation says and even horrifyingly take the advice of Tarasova! Everyone must acknowledge that Tarasova influence has destroyed many programs in recent years! You must be able to ignore federation politics - unlikely as they are providing $$$$ - and ignore destructive awful Tarasova! Like her adding of tosca to everything or four seasons to everything.

First, I must clarify that I am not a fan of Tarasova. I respect her for her work in earlier years, as well as for her overall passion and devotion for/to figure skating, and her commentary on competitions can be interesting, but some of the things she has said while commentating have been really disgusting (most of all I dislike how she contradicts herself and what she has said about some skaters/teams), and some of her decisions about programs etc. have not been good indeed.

That said, I also dislike when rumours are stated as facts. Apart from that first instance with Bobrova/Soloviev's 2012/2013 season FD of which they themselves (or was it Zhulin?) said in an interview that Tarasova had proposed the addition of 'Toska' to the 'Man With a Harmonica', her involvement with the music choices or the changes made to the music of their later FDs is just rumours from figure skating fans that are based on nothing else but that first occassion.

In regard to the 'Birds' FD, Zhulin himself said in an interview that it was his own idea to change the music to 'Lacrimosa' and 'Four Seasons'. And, as for their last FD, there has not been one word about Tarasova's involvement with the music choice from any semi reliable source. Clarification - for me, a reliable source would be Bobrova/Soloviev, Zhulin/Volkov, Tarasova herself or some federation official. A "semi reliable" source would be Vaitsekhovskaya - practically the only journalist writing about figure skating in Russia who has some "insider" information. But there has not been a word even along the lines of "this or that (insert, Bobrova etc.) told me that..." from what I know. So all this hate of yours is based only on empty rumours.

 

[gmyers]

First, I must clarify that I am not a fan of Tarasova. I respect her for her work in earlier years, as well as for her overall passion and devotion for/to figure skating, and her commentary on competitions can be interesting, but some of the things she has said while commentating have been really disgusting (most of all I dislike how she contradicts herself and what she has said about some skaters/teams), and some of her decisions about programs etc. have not been good indeed.

That said, I also dislike when rumours are stated as facts. Apart from that first instance with Bobrova/Soloviev's 2012/2013 season FD of which they themselves (or was it Zhulin?) said in an interview that Tarasova had proposed the addition of 'Toska' to the 'Man With a Harmonica', her involvement with the music choices or the changes made to the music of their later FDs is just rumours from figure skating fans that are based on nothing else but that first occassion.

In regard to the 'Birds' FD, Zhulin himself said in an interview that it was his own idea to change the music to 'Lacrimosa' and 'Four Seasons'. And, as for their last FD, there has not been one word about Tarasova's involvement with the music choice from any semi reliable source. Clarification - for me, a reliable source would be Bobrova/Soloviev, Zhulin/Volkov, Tarasova herself or some federation official. A "semi reliable" source would be Vaitsekhovskaya - practically the only journalist writing about figure skating in Russia who has some "insider" information. But there has not been a word even along the lines of "this or that (insert, Bobrova etc.) told me that..." from what I know. So all this hate of yours is based only on empty rumours.

Undeniable tons of stuff in this thread are rumors. Sometimes they are true sometimes they are nothing! It's all because of extreme interest people have in teams that are supposed to be great and do great because they are Russian ice dance teams! Meanwhile all the results are now terrible and the whole system has collapsed into nearly nothing and people need to blame people like Tarasova or Kustarova or say Stepanova is a lousy skater or katsalapov beats his partner!

 

[Aqua Lady]

IMO, S/K shut their doors when they finished 10th at Euros. It was already half-shut mid-way through the season but that finish did it for them. I truly doubt the success of this whole coaching change with Zhulin. Zhulin may be a good technician, and that may help them in a way but overall, I've never been a fan of any of his visions.

If I were the Russian Fed, I'd put my money on teams like Stepanova/Bukin and Zahorski/Guerriero who have lasting power. These two teams, in particular, I see could do far better with Marie-France and Patrice. If S/B have a language barrier problem, another option they could consider would be Krylova. There, they'd be top priority straight away. These two teams need to get away from traditional Russian coaching. They have the modern flare and potential. They're gonna rot if they stay in Russia.

 

[Ice Dance]

I don't see Stepanova & Bukin as a Marie-France style team. S&B are best when they skate dynamic & youthful programs, showing off tricky steps & maneuvers. The young teams with Dubreil & Lauzon are all packaged the same as the older teams with lyrical music, similar-looking step sequences, and an emphasis on a soft, romantic relationship. All things that would strip away the uniqueness of S&B as a team, IMO. They would gain flow & power, but IMO not worth the cost for a team with so much natural dynamism.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, maybe. They are still developing and don't have a specific "look" yet as far as I can tell.

 

[MarieM]

IMO, S/K shut their doors when they finished 10th at Euros. It was already half-shut mid-way through the season but that finish did it for them. I truly doubt the success of this whole coaching change with Zhulin. Zhulin may be a good technician, and that may help them in a way but overall, I've never been a fan of any of his visions.

If I were the Russian Fed, I'd put my money on teams like Stepanova/Bukin and Zahorski/Guerriero who have lasting power. These two teams, in particular, I see could do far better with Marie-France and Patrice. If S/B have a language barrier problem, another option they could consider would be Krylova. There, they'd be top priority straight away. These two teams need to get away from traditional Russian coaching. They have the modern flare and potential. They're gonna rot if they stay in Russia.

Zhulin isn't a good technician. Volkov was. And Volkov ran away. The other technical coach (Denis can't remember his name) left a year or so ago because he couldn't work with the other coach at Zhulin's rink, the one you saw on TV all season long.
IMO all teams got hurt in the process because Denis & Volkov were the TES magicians, who understood levels and so on.

And I do agree about you other statement. Stepanova&Bukin & Zahorski&Guerreiro are wasted on their current coaching situation. I wonder why the fed isn't able to build a team of coach that do work. They do have the TES specialists, they do have great packaging manager (Platov is one that is not used at the moment, Morozov at his best etc.). But they don't have ONE working team with it all.
Add to that IMO Russians ice dancers at the moment lack the personality, it shows on the ice and it's not setting them apart at all. Stepanova has to work on her basics because at the moment, she's one of the worst ice dancer on the plateau.

 

[Aqua Lady]

And I do agree about you other statement. Stepanova&Bukin & Zahorski&Guerreiro are wasted on their current coaching situation. I wonder why the fed isn't able to build a team of coach that do work. They do have the TES specialists, they do have great packaging manager (Platov is one that is not used at the moment, Morozov at his best etc.). But they don't have ONE working team with it all.
Add to that IMO Russians ice dancers at the moment lack the personality, it shows on the ice and it's not setting them apart at all. Stepanova has to work on her basics because at the moment, she's one of the worst ice dancer on the plateau.

Main reason why the Russians can't progress: They are stuck in another time period. They refuse to move on... Very much in denial of how much they suck right now. I'm sorry if that sounds rude but it's the truth and they have to face it.

From my point of view, the packaging of the programs and the teams, as a whole, are a few of their biggest downfalls. When I watch Russian ID, I always feel like there's a certain quality significantly missing. Their packaging is bad period. Poor music choices, bland choreography, no whatsoever outside-the-box creative effort... With the exception of S/B & I/Z who tried different styles... Didn't necessarily work but gotta give props for the effort.

 

[Aqua Lady]

Just stumbled upon this https://mobile.twitter.com/fs_gossips/status/859444104853377024 a couple of minutes ago and I honestly couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't even know Elena smokes. As a fan of hers, I'm really, really disappointed. This is so bad for her health, especially since she's an athlete. I cannot.