2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[Globetrotter]

Good gracious I don't know why everyone so against Vincent being named on the team. I was perfectly okay with it as were my parents. As far as I'm concerned Vincent earned his place when he finished second at last year'sNationals, first Junior worlds, and second at Finlandia trophy. I knew there was no way Ross was getting on that team not with his he just can't score that well internationally its it was a no-brainer I think it should have been explained better to the figure skating public however they weren't so confused and outraged over this seeming Injustice the only Injustice I can think of is the fact that he was named not first but second alternate. Congrats to Nathan, Vincent, and Adam!

Thanks for highlighting where it all went wrong. By putting Miner only as 2nd alternate and not even a shot for 4CC or Worlds, it came across badly that the whole selection process was rigged and anecdotal. The issue is not the choice between Miner and Zhou. It was that Miner got shoved for a no medal threat Rippon and USFS nailed the final shaft into Miner by not even naming him as 1st alternate in Olympics and Worlds. It was one of those W.T.F. moments that left a very bad taste. Too much FS bad PR moves the past days. Tsk tsk.

 

[mikeko666]

USFS should have informed each skater his/her condition to make it to Oly team. Some skaters could have retired earlier to save money for college or something. Figure skating is very expensive sports. USFS and NBC made money in expenses of those skaters who spent $$$ for training, traveling, etc.

 

[Globetrotter]

Based on the published criteria (tier 1, tier 2, tier 3), assuming all results stand, Zhou and Rippon should obviously be sent over Ross...the only thing Ross has is a fraction of a point at nationals over Zhou and a few more points over Rippon, but Rippon's GPF makes up for a few points, and Vincent is way stronger in tier 2 and tier 3. Similarly, based on published criteria, Karen should be sent over Ashley--she does better on all tier 1 criteria. There really isn't any debate on that. So,I think the right choices were made based on published criteria.

The secondary issue is whether nationals was judged fairly. In the ladies case, Ashley's deflated PCS may have cost her 3rd place. If she got her normal PCS relative to Karen, that would tie her with Karen in tier one because Karen did do a few points better at worlds last year, and then she had arguably a slightly stronger GP series (not really but i guess?) and that would put her ahead maybe? In mens, Vincent's PCS was inflated more than Ross, but Adam was held up too, so i don't know if the overall placements would change. But perhaps with a bigger gap there would be a stronger case for Ross? It is hard to say

I don't think the fury here has to do with Ross not being sent. Based on their published criteria, they objectively did right - never mind whether the scores were fair. It was ultimately a judgment call. The big bad taste is USFS gave the equivalent of a middle finger to Miner by not even having the courtesy to name him as 1st alternate to Worlds and the Olympics when he had earned it with a 2nd place finish. That certainly didn't go down well. If Ashley Wagner was furious over her (perceived as low) PCS scores, I think Miner should be raving mad over this objectively shoved response to him.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Thanks for highlighting where it all went wrong. By putting Miner only as 2nd alternate and not even a shot for 4CC or Worlds, it came across badly that the whole selection process was rigged and anecdotal. The issue is not the choice between Miner and Zhou. It was that Miner got shoved for a no medal threat Rippon and USFS nailed the final shaft into Miner by not even naming him as 1st alternate in Olympics and Worlds. It was one of those W.T.F. moments that left a very bad taste. Too much FS bad PR moves the past days. Tsk tsk.

like a trillion thumbs up for this right here! This is what leaves the worst taste of all because it makes it look rigged :agree:

I think when the rules were released it was interpreted by many as being "body of work" would simply be taken into consideration (and used for very serious matters like Nathan) and not become the #1 defining/only factor that decided all including alternates. And I really doubt skaters thought that the silver medalist was at risk to be dropped, only the bronze. Even Johnny and Tara spelled it out as such and also found it difficult to believe a silver medalist wouldn't make the team

 

[jaylee]

Based on the published criteria (tier 1, tier 2, tier 3), assuming all results stand, Zhou and Rippon should obviously be sent over Ross...the only thing Ross has is a fraction of a point at nationals over Zhou and a few more points over Rippon, but Rippon's GPF makes up for a few points, and Vincent is way stronger in tier 2 and tier 3. Similarly, based on published criteria, Karen should be sent over Ashley--she does better on all tier 1 criteria. There really isn't any debate on that. So,I think the right choices were made based on published criteria.

There are no weights or point scale assigned to the events within the tiers. We knew 2018 Nationals was a tier 1 event that mattered. We just didn't know that Adam Rippon and Jason Brown could show up and have a meltdown on the ice and they'd still be named ahead of the US Nationals silver medalist to the team (remember that Jason is still ahead of Ross even within the alternate ranking). I agree with others that if that had been the case, the USFSA should have announced that beforehand so that other skaters didn't have to bother with showing up to mess up the USFSA "dream team" (which was quite obvious with the inflated scores in the SP for the top 3). Actually, Rippon, Brown, and Chen should've withdrawn from the event so they could've been put on the Olympic team without the risk of embarrassing themselves, and Nationals should have been a competition for the alternate spots.

 

[caseyl23]

I don’t understand the double standard for male and female underrotators. Everyone is clamoring for Mirai, Karen and Ashley to get their acts together, all the while hyping up Vincent’s technical ability as if he were landing his jumps cleanly.

I know I've mentioned this more than once on this forum, but I also think part of it is what the international skaters are doing. The technical standard for being competitive outside the U.S. is closer to what Nathan is doing than what most men at Nationals did, and it's still pretty new to see a U.S. men's skater attempting that kind of content. Even though Vincent's not rotating the jumps, now, I, for one, am curious to see if he is willing/able to improve. If he is, though, it definitely won't happen this season - we all have to come to peace with that. Right now, he's just doing his best with what he does have. If he is going to try something new, though, after this season will be the time to start it - at the beginning of the new quad.

 

[TCAngel18]

There are no weights or point scale assigned to the events within the tiers. We knew 2018 Nationals was a tier 1 event that mattered. We just didn't know that Adam Rippon and Jason Brown could show up and have a meltdown on the ice and they'd still be named ahead of the US Nationals silver medalist to the team (remember that Jason is still ahead of Ross even within the alternate ranking). I agree with others that if that had been the case, the USFSA should have announced that beforehand so that other skaters didn't have to bother with showing up to mess up the USFSA "dream team" (which was quite obvious with the inflated scores in the SP for the top 3). Actually, Rippon, Brown, and Chen should've withdrawn from the event so they could've been put on the Olympic team without the risk of embarrassing themselves, and Nationals should have been a competition for the alternate spots.

This probably wouldn’t fly, because Nationals placement has a ton to do with funding from the Federation for the next season.

 

[fenway3]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Philip Hersh offers some excellent recommendations (in the third part of the article) on how to make the selection process more transparent:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

 

[TCAngel18]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Philip Hersh offers some excellent recommendations (in the third part of the article) on how to make the selection process more transparent:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

I think Phil Hersh read my comment from the Furious thread and wrote this article super quick (sips tea).

 

[caseyl23]

like a trillion thumbs up for this right here! This is what leaves the worst taste of all because it makes it look rigged :agree:

I think when the rules were released it was interpreted by many as being "body of work" would simply be taken into consideration (and used for very serious matters like Nathan) and not become the #1 defining/only factor that decided all including alternates. And I really doubt skaters thought that the silver medalist was at risk to be dropped, only the bronze. Even Johnny and Tara spelled it out as such and also found it difficult to believe a silver medalist wouldn't make the team

Exactly - there's no precedent that I can think of for the silver medalist not making a three-skater team. Obviously, times have changed with the new criteria, but I don't think anyone thought things had changed this much.

 

[GGFan]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Philip Hersh offers some excellent recommendations (in the third part of the article) on how to make the selection process more transparent:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

I don't know how I feel about agreeing with Phil (and it's too late to delete my previous post where I made the same argument). :dev2:

 

[gstrain]

Does anybody have a link to the detailed selection criteria for the Olympics team? I've seen lists of what the Tier 1, 2 and 3 events are, but haven't found anything that translates that into how an actual decision is made.

Several people have said the skaters and their coaches have known what the selection process is and have only themselves to blame, but what exactly does that mean? Is there any sort of points based or objective system on how participation and placements in different events are used to make a decision. Ross and his coach (or at least his coach) don't sound like they knew were they stood going into Nationals (no chance), and I'm trying to understood if they should have or if everything was so vague they really didn't. Other than Nathan, at the Tier 1 events only Ross and Vincent were medalists, and yet Ross was passed by three people. Was there an actual objective process, or was the committee just picking who they wanted?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Exactly - there's no precedent that I can think of for the silver medalist not making a three-skater team. Obviously, times have changed with the new criteria, but I don't think anyone thought things had changed this much.

There is very little for the fans to get invested in with this event anymore. They can give assignments and opportunity based on internal politics and then hold it against those who aren’t afforded the same opportunity and say they don’t have the same body of work.

 

[jaylee]

This probably wouldn’t fly, because Nationals placement has a ton to do with funding from the Federation for the next season.

I was being sarcastic. This competition was a farce.

 

[GGFan]

Does anybody have a link to the detailed selection criteria for the Olympics team? I've seen lists of what the Tier 1, 2 and 3 events are, but haven't found anything that translates that into how an actual decision is made.

Several people have said the skaters and their coaches have known what the selection process is and have only themselves to blame, but what exactly does that mean? Is there any sort of points based or objective system on how participation and placements in different events are used to make a decision. Ross and his coach (or at least his coach) don't sound like they knew were they stood going into Nationals (no chance), and I'm trying to understood if they should have or if everything was so vague they really didn't. Other than Nathan, at the Tier 1 events only Ross and Vincent were medalists, and yet Ross was passed by three people. Was there an actual objective process, or was the committee just picking who they wanted?

There is no translation or rosetta stone for this hot mess This just gave them cover to make whatever decision they wanted to make, and they probably don't want to give up that power by making it objective

 

[mikeko666]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Philip Hersh offers some excellent recommendations (in the third part of the article) on how to make the selection process more transparent:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

I don't think USFS wants to make it any more transparent. It is important for them to leave some room for politiking and being able to send whoever they want to (or not to send whoever they do not want to).

 

[TontoK]

I don't know how I feel about agreeing with Phil (and it's too late to delete my previous post where I made the same argument). :dev2:

My concern with a rigid points based system with factors over a season or two is that it leaves little room for an emerging skater that hits like bolt of lightning just in time.

Even most of us, devout skating fans who follow the sport, had taken any notice of Bradie Tennell before Thanksgiving. How would she have shaken out in such a system?

 

[GGFan]

There is very little for the fans to get invested in with this event anymore. They can give assignments and opportunity based on internal politics and then hold it against those who aren’t afforded the same opportunity and say they don’t have the same body of work.

1. Yes, this starts to raise accessibility issues. Having the right coach is that much more important.

2. You need lead up time. You have to do well enough to get the assignments so you can then do well at them in advance of Nationals.

3. Don't think you're just going to do your own thing and show up and kill it at Nationals Christopher Bowman style. It changes the type of skater that is rewarded as well.

4. Perhaps less amplitude on jumps and less risky technique (as in risk of falling in competition) will prevail in long run as well. That could be good or bad depending on your view.

 

[NAOTMAA]

My concern with a rigid points based system with factors over a season or two is that it leaves little room for an emerging skater that hits like bolt of lightning just in time.

Even most of us, devout skating fans who follow the sport, had taken any notice of Bradie Tennell before Thanksgiving. How would she have shaken out in such a system?

I guess Polina in 2014 is the example but that would require an open interpretation of the rules based on feeling and trying to predict the future of said newbie. That's not really based on hard facts though is it cause you can't really predict the future and junior success is not the same as senior

And lets not forget that a rigid point system that factors over a season or two is how Miki Ando got to Turino, and look how that turned out

 

[GGFan]

My concern with a rigid points based system with factors over a season or two is that it leaves little room for an emerging skater that hits like bolt of lightning just in time.

Even most of us, devout skating fans who follow the sport, had taken any notice of Bradie Tennell before Thanksgiving. How would she have shaken out in such a system?

To be clear, there is no perfect system but here is my preference list:

1. Nationals is a huge factor, with leeway for winners at the big stages. None of this general body of work. You were on a podium at Worlds or something huge. This 6th place at GPF gives you monster points ain't my cup of tea. Also we're only booting the 3rd place finisher NOT 2nd.

2. We just go with the Nationals results. This leaves room for a World Champion to be left off a team which would be brutal but that's life.

3. We go with an objective weights or an explicit ranking system. Everything is transparent and you're giving lifetime achievement awards (exaggerating).

4. The current situation where we know criteria but the USFS has substantial leeway on how they prefer to weigh the criteria from case to case behind closed doors. This just smells given the sport's history. It also has not been a tradition in U.S. figure skating.