Miner sparks judges with quad Salchow

[gmyers]

So sad! It’s just highway robbery

 

[NAOTMAA]

All of this happening just as Tonya Harding is currently getting tons of attention and newfound glory with the release and Oscar hype of "I, Tonya"

I mean wasn't her whole belief, "It's all fixed for their favorites! I never stood a chance! Never got a fair shot!" It's actually one of the few/only things that actually remained consistent in her story all these years

 

[jenaj]

There's a lack of transparency here that's upsetting. They need to say exactly what are the criteria for getting on the team, and stick with it.

Give a point value for a medal in the GPF of that year, or even the Grand Prix regular competition. OK, so Adam has two silver medals? He already has, say four points. Ross has 0? He has no points. Then give points for medals in the nationals. Whoever has the most points wins, with Nationals as the tie breaker, say. Of course, that would cause Jason to probably displace Vincent, and putting Jason on the team was never in the discussion for whatever reason.

Or go by scores. The people with the highest short and long program scores of the season are on, because they're needed for the team.That would cover a potential medalist having a bad day, slight injury or cold, or even having to miss the competition.

A case could be made that Ross Miner has not been a great skater over the years, but I feel bad for him. It's clear that the backroom deals etc. are alive and well.

The criteria only go back a year. Except with Ross who they say in the past did well at Nationals but not at Worlds. I hate the USFSA. It's no wonder the US has lost its dominance in ladies and no thanks to them that the US is strong in dance and, with one prodigy, in men.

 

[EyesOfLove]

Never have the lyrics of "Love of My Life" soaked into my heart in this poignant a manner...

 

[twirlingblades]

There's a lack of transparency here that's upsetting. They need to say exactly what are the criteria for getting on the team, and stick with it.

Give a point value for a medal in the GPF of that year, or even the Grand Prix regular competition. OK, so Adam has two silver medals? He already has, say four points. Ross has 0? He has no points. Then give points for medals in the nationals. Whoever has the most points wins, with Nationals as the tie breaker, say. Of course, that would cause Jason to probably displace Vincent, and putting Jason on the team was never in the discussion for whatever reason.

Or go by scores. The people with the highest short and long program scores of the season are on, because they're needed for the team.That would cover a potential medalist having a bad day, slight injury or cold, or even having to miss the competition.

A case could be made that Ross Miner has not been a great skater over the years, but I feel bad for him. It's clear that the backroom deals etc. are alive and well.

I agree they could use a point system, but the criteria tiers aren't hard to understand.

 

[Mathman]

I would like to see a system where Nationals placement was the default and any change would face a significant burden of proof. That way if, for instance, Nathan was under the weather and only got 4th at Nationals, he could still be selected based on his dominant season.

But Chou edging Miner at some minor event in the fall would not meet the threshold.

 

[brightphoton]

I would like to see a system where Nationals placement was the default and any change would face a significant burden of proof. That way if, for instance, Nathan was under the weather and only got 4th at Nationals, he could still be selected based on his dominant season.

But Chou edging Miner at some minor event in the fall would not meet the threshold.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the selection committee decision was already decided to kick off -someone- who finished on the podium, so Adam could be on the Olympic team.

The 11-1 vote was for Ross to be booted off instead of Vincent. 11 to 1, can you imagine that? That's near unanimous for one GP in Russia being more important than our own Nationals.

 

[Skater Boy]

It's going to add to people not taking the sport seriously. Your results don't matter, just if some random unknown people in a committee like you

You don't even know why Ross was left off the team. Someone on the committee might not like his personality, or his 5 o'clock shadow, or his costume. The decision is not even transparent

He should have gotten Vera Wang to design his outfits or Oscar de la Renta or Yves St Laurent. It might have helped - just joking. I understand the decision and how it was decided. Still it hurts for Ross. I hope something good happens for him.

 

[Skater Boy]

It is demoralizing for Mitchell...it's going to hurt the sport if coaches that succeed in getting their skaters to nail their jumps and get onto the podium start quitting due to perceived favoritism for the Olympics. Ross' quad and axel looked solid.

I feel bad for Ross but one good skate hardly mean Ross has his jumps - just saying...

 

[charlotte14]

Well both Ross and Adam will not medal at the Olympics anyway, so sending which one is kinda the same to me. It all comes down to which one the fed prefer. And USFA has never hid their affection towards Adam. Unlike Ashley, Adam has not gotten on the bad side with the fed this season.

 

[eriecold]

Wouldn’t a better comparison be Vincent to Polina?

Not even. Polina had never competed as a senior when she won Nats 2nd in 2014. Her only body of work came as a Jr.
Ross is a veteran, Vincent went to the GP this season and competed as senior last year at nats. That's anumber senior competitions to consider (for better or worse)

 

[eriecold]

If I'm understanding this correctly, the selection committee decision was already decided to kick off -someone- who finished on the podium, so Adam could be on the Olympic team.

The 11-1 vote was for Ross to be booted off instead of Vincent. 11 to 1, can you imagine that? That's near unanimous for one GP in Russia being more important than our own Nationals.

Vincent is the current Jr World champion and was the defending silver. He was very, very hard to be left out (and I was not rooting for him, his GP season was bad)

 

[TryMeLater]

I would like to see a system where Nationals placement was the default and any change would face a significant burden of proof. That way if, for instance, Nathan was under the weather and only got 4th at Nationals, he could still be selected based on his dominant season.

But Chou edging Miner at some minor event in the fall would not meet the threshold.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the selection committee decision was already decided to kick off -someone- who finished on the podium, so Adam could be on the Olympic team.

The 11-1 vote was for Ross to be booted off instead of Vincent. 11 to 1, can you imagine that? That's near unanimous for one GP in Russia being more important than our own Nationals.

IMO, every ISU competition is more important than nationals.
But that's not the point.
Ross has never scored over 168 internationally (or at least in the last 3-4 years). Both Rippon and Zhou did.
Not only that - overall this season of Rippon and Zhou is much stronger points-wise than Miner's.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Looking at the scores on paper is meaningless. Domestically Zhou's PCS have been very inflated and internationally his scores were inflated by underrotated quads that did not get called. At Finlandia Trophy, the Quad Sal and Quad Toe were both cheated, but not called. That is a BIG point boost he gets as a result, not just on the technical mark but also on the overall perception of the judges for the PCS, thinking he is capable of doing 4 Quads. His technique on the Quad Toe is especially horrendous, he's never even close on that jump. Vincent would have only finished that competition in 4th place rather than 2nd if he had been called correctly.

That LP of Zhou's at Finlandia, where he supposedly did 4 Quads, was something that gave him a lot of buzz and yet in actuality he only did 1 clean Quad in the whole competition - the Flip in the LP. In the SP he messed up the Lutz landing and underrotated the Flip, in the LP he again messed up the Lutz, and underrotated both the Sal and the Toe.

At Cup of China he had 2 underrotated Quad Flips and an underrotated Quad Salchow that were not called. Another big point boost, which would have dropped him in the standings. Then his showing at Grand Prix France was just atrocious, worse than anything Ross Miner did this season, and he again had an underrotated Quad Flip and an underrotated Quad Sal that were not called, which would have dropped him another spot in the competition.

So WHERE is the "body of work" from Vincent Zhou? It's not there. He was not actually better internationally this season than Ross, he simply got extra phantom points for cheated quads that were not called.

 

[TryMeLater]

Looking at the scores on paper is meaningless. Domestically Zhou's PCS have been very inflated and internationally his scores were inflated by underrotated quads that did not get called. At Finlandia Trophy, the Quad Sal and Quad Toe were both cheated, but not called. That is a BIG point boost he gets as a result, not just on the technical mark but also on the overall perception of the judges for the PCS, thinking he is capable of doing 4 Quads. His technique on the Quad Toe is especially horrendous, he's never even close on that jump. Vincent would have only finished that competition in 4th place rather than 2nd if he had been called correctly.

That LP of Zhou's at Finlandia, where he supposedly did 4 Quads, was something that gave him a lot of buzz and yet in actuality he only did 1 clean Quad in the whole competition - the Flip in the LP. In the SP he messed up the Lutz landing and underrotated the Flip, in the LP he again messed up the Lutz, and underrotated both the Sal and the Toe.

At Cup of China he had 2 underrotated Quad Flips and an underrotated Quad Salchow that were not called. Another big point boost, which would have dropped him in the standings. Then his showing at Grand Prix France was just atrocious, worse than anything Ross Miner did this season, and he again had an underrotated Quad Flip and an underrotated Quad Sal that were not called, which would have dropped him another spot in the competition.

So WHERE is the "body of work" from Vincent Zhou? It's not there. He was not actually better internationally this season than Ross, he simply got extra phantom points for cheated quads that were not called.

Well, considering the same technical panel from CoC will judge at the Olympics then I would think that Zhou quads won't be called again.
And here's the "body of work".

 

[qwertyskates]

I feel bad for Ross but one good skate hardly mean Ross has his jumps - just saying...

But you can't "say" either that this isn't an uptrend for Ross, that he's not peaking at the right time.

 

[Mathman]

IMO, every ISU competition is more important than nationals.

The ISU is certainly consolidating its ascendency in this regard. The old model went like this. The ISU is a confederation of national federations. The national federations rule the ISU, not the other way around.

Each national federation holds its national championship, which is a big deal to that nation's skaters. Then the national federations all send their national champions to the World Championship where the world's best can compete against each other for national bragging rights.

Well, that was then, this is now. Since the 1990s the ISU has added more and more ISU events. It has been especially successful in pushing the Grand Prix. This was the dream of past ISU president Ottavio Cinquanta. He has received a lot of criticism for how he ran the ISU (like a dictatorship), but he did succeed in whittling away the importance of the national federations and increasing the relevance of the ISU itself. (This always happens. The person in charge, takes charge.)

So which is better? Should national federations hang on to what little influence and prestige remains to them, or should they embrace the new order?

 

[GGFan]

But you can't "say" either that this isn't an uptrend for Ross, that he's not peaking at the right time.

There is this fallacious assumption that consistency can predict the future with certainty, but that is not the case. Peaking also has predictive power. We would have to look at a large sample and determine whether "peaking skaters" have done better than "consistent skaters."

What the fed did here was to pick who they thought the best three skaters were based on criteria (which they published) and weights that were not disclosed beforehand.

Even if consistency should matter then that argument is better made for Worlds where there are spots at stake.

This booting of the second place finisher sets a bad precedent. I really hope that they don't boot a winner in future years.

 

[Ravyn Rant]

I have to say the decision left a really bad taste in my mouth. We spent a lot of money to go see the competition live and if the results don't matter, why bother attending Nationals? And when someone with a half-century of fandom considers that, I can't even imagine what the casual viewers must be thinking.
Fortunately there are several international competitions coming to the west coast next season. Since only they are important now, perhaps I'll consider attending one of them.
There. I got it off my chest, now I feel a little better. (*raises an elegant middle finger in the general direction of the selection committee*)

 

[qwertyskates]

There is this fallacious assumption that consistency can predict the future with certainty, but that is not the case. Peaking also has predictive power. We would have to look at a large sample size and determine whether "peaking skaters" have done better than "consistent skaters."

What the fed did here was to pick who they thought the best three skaters were based on criteria (which they published) and weights that were not disclosed beforehand.

Even if consistency should matter then that argument is better made for Worlds where there are spots at stake.

This booting of the second place finished sets a bad precedent. I really hope that they don't boot a winner in future years.

:agree: Agreed.

I wrote on another thread that the Russians are doing it right - they are asking Med to prove herself at an international event, the Euros, duking it out with the Nationals podium (except for Kostenaia who isn't age-eligible) in front of a more neutral panel. Even an obvious BOW like Med, the Russian Nathan, isn't given a bye. This helps to encourage the other Russian athletes that there is no favoritism, and you are as good as how you prove yourself at that particular space and time, i.e. peaking.