Choreography

[sun110]

charlotte14, if you read my post carefully, you will find the links to those two videos as well as to my own drawings there.

Those videos are great, but it was kind of difficult to make the differnce between the first and second parts and what the overall pattern is like. I envy the directional data, though, as said. The other drawings of Hanyu's programs just about verify my observation of the smallish size of his patterns.

Javi's and Yuzu's StSq form and size are fairly equal - both did circular ones mostly in their early days, Javi usually very clear circles, Hanyu maybe less so. Javi's two last ones have been straight lines, Hope and Legacy was straight and with Seimei he went back to circular. Javi's StSqs have been predominantly level 4 since 2015-6. What is interesting - and I have been wondering why - is that Hanyu has been getting mostly level 3s for his FS StSqs, only the one in Hope and Legacy ever got level 4s regularly.


E

Yuzuru seems to make small mistake here and there when doing Seimei's step sequency. Maybe he often got carried away by the music? He got level 4 at NHK but level 3 at GPF if I remember correctly? Lol and level 2 at SC because of the rule changes.
Here's an analysis of Seimei Stsq3 issue with gif.
http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166694122764/anonymous-said-hello-i-was-just-wondering-do
Another analysis of Seimei Stsq4 at 2015 NHK with gif, including ice coverage and pattern.
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/139311406525/hello-everyone-this-post-is-the-continuation-of

 

[Izabela]

Entire Post

Thanks for sharing your work here! It's a great way to look into the "technical" side of choreographing a program too, and not just about about how artistically good it is, or how the program can bring out the music so well, or what kind of "dance" incorporated in the choreography. Even though I venture more on the "art" side of figure skating, it's also important to emphasize on its technical part, and how choreographers have to space elements to highlight the best in the skater.

I was looking at the choreography of Wilson and Bourne and in terms of ice coverage, Wilson does cover more, particularly in their step sequences. May also affect how we view Bourne's step sequences because even though they cover less ice, they are also filled with movements, so they tend to look more dynamic. Nichol is so conversative though on her ice coverage for Nathan and Boyang, I wonder if it's because of her own reservation or as a proper assessment to the skaters' ability. Wilson, Bourne and Nichol are pretty much the same on spin placement, although Bourne's Hope and Legacy is an anomaly since all three spins are on the right side. Bourne's ChSQ to Seimei 1.0 is almost the same pattern as the StSq. I would have love to see that in the Olympics, but they had to contain Yuzuru's FS there understandably due to his injury.

But again, thanks for sharing this! You're amazing.

 

[eppen]

Yuzuru seems to make small mistake here and there when doing Seimei's step sequency. Maybe he often got carried away by the music? He got level 4 at NHK but level 3 at GPF if I remember correctly? Lol and level 2 at SC because of the rule changes.
Here's an analysis of Seimei Stsq3 issue with gif.
http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166694122764/anonymous-said-hello-i-was-just-wondering-do
Another analysis of Seimei Stsq4 at 2015 NHK with gif, including ice coverage and pattern.
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/139311406525/hello-everyone-this-post-is-the-continuation-of

Thanks for the links! This continues to puzzle me, though. I find it very hard to think that such a meticulous technician as Hanyu would actually miss or forget steps or turns on a regular basis in one of the elements in a competition. I should also think that a good choreographer (or in the end, a good coach), would make sure that the form, length, step and turn counts/content etc. is excatly or even more than what is required for the levels they are aiming for. I have been thinking that it could be the body movement criteria possibly, ie he does not do it enough for level 4?

Charlotte14 - the distance Hanyu skates is not meant with the size of the pattern. What I mean with it is how close to the borders the skater goes regularly, which is clearly different for Chan and Fernández compared to Hanyu. The other two basically sweep the borders and go to each corner, Hanyu's pattern stops well away from the borders. I think it was Javi who at some competition commented on what happens in the practice sessions. The home rink where they practice is often different in size and shape than the competition rink - the standard rink required by ISU for championships is 29 x 60 m which is used commonly in Europe, North American rinks tend to be narrower. When they start working at a new rink, part of the process is to adapt the pattern to fit the rink, to get the jumps into correct places etc. Hanyu's pattern looks more suited to North American rinks as it's usually long and narrow - why he doesn't do the adaptation to different size rinks beats me. Another explanation can be stamina - a small pattern means less speed and distance to cover the entire ice. I think this is very well visible in Seimei 2.0 at the Olympics, it is tiny compared to the original version. Also Aliev's second part which is skated basically in the middle of the ice.

IMO very little of competetive programs can be regarded as art as in expressing ideas or emotions etc. as its main motivation. They are made to be evaluated in competitions and have to fulfill a lot of general technical criteria, they have to take into consideration the skater's skills and talents, etc. Looking at the criteria of how the PCS category Choreography/Composition is evaluated, it is very much a technical evaluation and many parts could maybe even be quantified in one way or another. Interpretation and Performance concern the end result or how well the skater performs the routine and is able to convey whatever the choreographer might have thought the choreography should be about in addition to showing off the skaters technical skills.

In addition to the skating direction and how often it changes, I was also thinking that one thing to look at could be how much of the time the skater performs to the audience versus the judges. This could be also put on a plan in the same manner as the directions. Most programs are planned strictly to face the judges - if you sit on the opposite side, you see a lot of backsides But if you face the audience, there is a better possibility to create a connection and get the audience on your side.

E

 

[charlotte14]

Charlotte14 - the distance Hanyu skates is not meant with the size of the pattern.

Which is why what you said earlier was confusing. Ice coverage isn’t pattern is that what you mean?

The shape of the pattern doesn’t always go with the complexity of a program. For example, some skater like Javi skates closes to the border but doesn’t do too much one foot skating compared to someone like Patrick Chan. Someone skates close to the border can have less multidirectional skating, also travel less distance. A program can go with only the frame without much details. There is a comparison here about the one foot skating and 2 foot skating in which they counted every half seconds they could: https://youtu.be/3qlpTMObg9A

The “pattern” as you mentioned is more of a frame of the program. It doesn’t really show other aspects like complexity of the footwork or how much ice that skaters has traveled. It’s like saying this music piece use Sonata form and the other use Rondo and that’s it. The sonata form or the rondo form itself doesn’t speak much about the true complexity of the composition.

Also, what you claim as “a small pattern means less speed and distance to cover the entire ice“ doesn’t make sense when Hanyu travels more on the ice than the average top 5 men. 705m > 620m.

Possibly that you didn’t pay attention to the multidirectional skating, the complexity of the sequences they do. Or let’s say:l some skaters travel in a 8 shape in a repetitive motion throughout the rink (let’s say you claim that they skate close to the border) and doesn’t change directions as much as others. They “appear to skate big” while in reality there is not much complexity in between.

In short, the complexity of a program doesn’t depend on the “pattern” on the ice. Some coaches have developed some patterns for each skater, to jump at which corner, to spin at which location. This kind of structure is in generally created to help skaters get used to the whole program as fast as they could. But those skeletons don’t say much about how difficult a program can be.

As from calculation and details drawing and certain measurements, the free skate in general are complicated so I’d rather ask people to draw them out than reading some wall of text.

Btw, if we talk about the short program then I’d say Javi’s choreography in the SP last season was kinda weakest among top guys in term of skating transitions: https://youtu.be/wNKwfeuGUN8

So, when you comment “repetitive pattern” or “small pattern”, yet you don’t even look at the details of a program. It’s like saying “all baroque music sounds the same” without counting the ornaments that come with each phrase or section.

 

[eppen]

Charlotte14, pattern and ice coverage is not the same as distance skated. You can skate a very long distance in a very small area or in a very large area - the final pattern will just look different. The first probably kind of like a heap of cooked spaghetti on a plate and the latter spaghetti spread into a bigger space. (It would have been interesting to know how they measured the distance for each skater to reach those figures, though.)

From what I have read and heard comments on ice coverage over the years, I have gotten the impression that bigger is better. In a way it makes sense, because it kind of shows how much speed you can generate and how fast you can cover the entire ice area. In ice dance I think it is one of the things that gets looked at e.g. in SD where you have the same pattern for everyone - bigger is better. And indeed from what I have seen, it is true, the top teams sweep the borders, go faster and further with exactly the same turns and steps as everybody else. In single's skating it is more difficult to evaluate, though, apart from maybe the size of the overall pattern.

And again, if you had read carefully, you would have noticed that I decided to skip the directions because just did not have the time to do that for all the ca. 25 programs I wanted to go through - it takes about 1,5-2 hours to do one program and with life happening at the same time, it is not possible to do everything at the same time. In addition, my main interest was in how the skater's movements are plotted on the ice in general, not so much the detail that happens along those lines. Some of those details - like transitions - have also been discussed at length elsewhere and there was no need to go through all that again here.

What I learned from doing this exercise is that choreographies most definitely are not individual works of art. For each skater there are many factors that get repeated over and over again: the element layout and placement on the ice, approaches to the most difficult jumps, etc. But as choreography/composition is a component with its own score, it is good to understand what it entails, what gets evaluated etc. And how the weaknesses and strengths of each skater are sometimes visible even in the pattern that they skate.

I am a little amused how aggressively you feel you need to defend Hanyu and bash particularly Javi at the same time... I hope you have also noticed that I have pointed out the weaknesses Javi has in his choreography patterns - some of them are the same as with Hanyu, like repetition, some are not, like using the same approaches to the quads for gazillion years. But as I also tried to point out, Javi and Yuzu are very different in their overall approaches, Yuzu impresses particularly with his technical skills, Javi with his presentation and interpretation. Each has his strengths and weaknesses, and it seems that neither has addressed them over the years.

E

 

[charlotte14]

Charlotte14, pattern and ice coverage is not the same as distance skated. You skate a very long distance in a very small area or in a very large area - the final pattern will just look different. The first probably kind of like a heap of cooked spaghetti on a plate and the latter spread into a bigger space. It would have been interesting to know how they measured the distance for each skater to reach those figures, though.
E

Because what you have said make sense in some parts and doesn’t make sense in the other parts.
Your words go with your overall analysis but there is no number, no drawing, now demonstration. As I have said, I’d rather watch some diagrams than reading a wall of text without video sources, no clear methods of analyzing, no clear diagrams.

When you say “smaller pattern goes with less ice coverage” etc but you cannot tell that exactly don’t you? How do you explain if “bigger is better” when the “bigger” come back with less ice coverage after measurement? Because in fact, you couldn’t calculate or even estimate the true coverage the skaters travel on ice. Or... what you observe is almost equal to the angle of the camera and what you feel.

What I need is a clear indication of the location, composition of the programs which you couldn’t provide.

Someone indeed put effort in measuring the numbers and show up in videos with sources and all. Which by itself is more easy to evaluate don’t you think?

Evaluation goes with clear materials and methods

Or in short, we need clear diagrams for demonstration.

 

[gkelly]

Well, there's ice coverage in the program as a whole, and then there's ice coverage per move, per edge.

"Bigger" would apply more to the latter than the former.

A couple other points:

If a skater mostly travels in a figure 8 pattern, they would be using approximately the same amount of clockwise and counterclockwise travel -- probably all the CW on one half of the ice and all the CCW on the other half, unless they reverse the direction of the 8 at some point.

However, they might do most of their turning all in their preferred direction and not much more than back crossovers in the less preferred direction.

Some skaters spend most of their time traveling only in the preferred direction, vast majority CCW or majority CW, in which case the pattern around the ice surface might be a big ellipse rather than an 8.

A skater who has more power/ice speed will likely get closer to the boards than a slower skater. However, a skater who skates in straighter lines/shallower curves might do the whole thing close to the boards and cover less ice than one who curves in and out getting closer to the boards and closer to the midline on the same stroking pass (or step sequence).

E.g., the pattern on the left below would cover more ice than the pattern on the right, but the one on the right might be placed closer the boards:

( |
) |
( |
) |
( |
) |

 

[charlotte14]

Well, there's ice coverage in the program as a whole, and then there's ice coverage per move, per edge.

"Bigger" would apply more to the latter than the former.

Thank you for your comment.

I have always wondered about this. Do choreographers draw pattern on paper for skaters to study?

Also do judges have some kind of meeting to talk about this? Do they draw the programs on paper and discuss?

 

[gkelly]

I have always wondered about this. Do choreographers draw pattern on paper for skaters to study?

I think some do. I have seen examples in older books. E.g., IIRC correctly the endpapers of Peggy Fleming's autobiography The Long Program included diagrams of the pattern made by her freeskating program. I have a book called Single Figure Skating for beginners and champions by Josef Dedic that includes diagrams of the 1976 Olympic freeskates of Christine Errath, Dorothy Hamill, Toller Cranston, and John Curry. (Two diagrams per program, for clarity to avoid too many overlapping lines.)

My coach talks about placing elements in different parts of the rink and visiting all parts of the rink, as well traveling CW as well as CCW. (I don't skate as fast or have as long a program as elite skaters, so I'm lucky just to hit all quadrants once in less than 2 minutes.)

I think the diagrams are more of a tool while choreographing to make sure there's enough variety of travel paths and enough time spent in each part of the ice. Once the program is choreographed there's really not much to "study" about it, but it might help some skaters to have a graphic record of where each element in a new program is supposed to happen on the ice and what path to travel to get there.

Also do judges have some kind of meeting to talk about this? Do they draw the programs on paper and discuss?

Judges are not supposed to have meetings about specific programs they are going to judge. Patterns on the ice are one thing they would discuss in general terms when they're being trained as judges, perhaps with some specific past programs as examples.

They do sometimes have meetings after an event to discuss why they scored the way they did. So they might talk about pattern and ice coverage of specific programs they just saw that were particularly good or particularly bad in those areas.

 

[chopinskate]

gkelly, how much do patterns on the ice affect scores, as opposed to the more artistic details of choreography?

 

[gkelly]

It probably depends on what's most important to each of the judges on that particular panel.

 

[chopinskate]

It probably depends on what's most important to each of the judges on that particular panel.

When people on this board talk about choreography, it never has anything to do with these "technical" details, always more to do with the artistic ones. So would you at least wager a guess that the judges are more probable to care about the artistic details?

 

[charlotte14]

a skater who skates in straighter lines/shallower curves might do the whole thing close to the boards and cover less ice than one who curves in and out getting closer to the boards and closer to the midline on the same stroking pass (or step sequence).
( |
) |
( |
) |
( |
) |

Which is what I am trying to say. Thank you very much. I also watch fancams and there’s this thing I have noticed. Some skaters skate close the board but mostly they don’t change their directions and there’s less complexity in the program if I actually draw their trace on the ice down the paper. It’s mostly the repetitive 8 pattern and I don’t think it’s the showcase for “big ice coverage” since if we measure the trace on ice, it turns out they don’t move as much and don’t even move in complexity.

 

[gkelly]

I would say that on average judges care about the technical details more than fans do.

Also it's easier to see the patterns on the ice when watching live than on video, especially video with cuts between multiple camera angles. (And, as mentioned above, the patterns and other aspects of the presentation may have a different effect for fans on the opposite side of the arena than for the judges.)

All judges are educated about skating technique and about the rules and guidelines as part of their judge training, including the general guidelines about "artistic" aspects of the performance and choreography.

Some judges also are knowledgeable about the arts because of their off-ice interests, off-ice education, etc. So they would bring that knowledge to their understanding of the guidelines and their evaluation of the relevant program components.

But other judges don't bring any more arts-related knowledge to judging beyond what they learn in judge training. Their interests in the rest of their lives may lie elsewhere.

E.g., a judge who is a professional musician will have a very different understanding of "Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music" under Interpretation than a judge who is tone deaf and never took a music lesson in his life and rarely even listens to the radio.

Maybe the latter judge is better at noticing the technical/visual/spatial aspects of the Composition component as well as better at judging the technical side of the skating.

When it comes to the "Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood)" criterion under Composition, a judge who keeps up with all the latest hit movies might recognize soundtracks and recognize when skaters' choreography makes reference to characters or other details of the movie whose music they're using, or a judge who keeps up with contemporary music genres and music videos might "get" what a skater using that music is aiming for, whereas a judge who prefers the classics might not. And vice versa. (And of course international judges from different countries will have different cultural points of reference than other judges from other parts of the world.)

The judge training is there to get everyone on the same page in general, but when it comes to the artistic side of the sport judges are still individual human beings and they all bring different backgrounds and different outside expertise.

That's true of fans too. Some fans are more interested in the details of jump technique or keeping track of quantitative stats, and others are more interested in the artistic side.

And some judges and some fans are very interested in several very different aspects of the sport.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

gkelly, how much do patterns on the ice affect scores, as opposed to the more artistic details of choreography?

Taking about the scores, you can see there is no Choreography score there, but Composition score (ISU changed the name of it, cause the word Choreo has different implications). And CO highly depends on things Eppen was talking about. Choreography we are talking about is something different. And im pretty sure choreography in that artistic sense is not the thing judges are judging per se. Thats why i was asking how choreography and choreographer job can impact the scores? I mean, Choreo and Composition score defined by ISU are not the same things!

 

[Izabela]

Which is what I am trying to say. Thank you very much. I also watch fancams and there’s this thing I have noticed. Some skaters skate close the board but mostly they don’t change their directions and there’s less complexity in the program if I actually draw their trace on the ice down the paper. It’s mostly the repetitive 8 pattern and I don’t think it’s the showcase for “big ice coverage” since if we measure the trace on ice, it turns out they don’t move as much and don’t even move in complexity.

I think we all are reading the patterns incorrectly here. I will not attribute it to the skater's ability per se but on the different quirks of the choreographers. It's akin to their fingerprints on ice, so to speak. Again, I believe you are right, that ice coverage doesn't necessarily mean bigger is better. Looking at the patterns and the movements on ice, as I've noted in my earlier post, it appears that Bourne has the tendency to choreograph on a more multi-directional level, and she uses more steps and turns in relation to Wilson. This may explain why she covers less ice compared to Wilson, and why her choreography looks more dynamic in relation to Wilson. If you watch Wilson's choreography of Javi, he incorporates more glides and less multi-directional movements on steps and turns, while he gives more focus on different variation of upper body movement (which may explain why eppen perceives Javi to be good presentation wise(?)). Wilson's quirk also appears to suit more lyrical type of music, whereas Bourne's more on the dissonant/chaotic type. Nichol, on the other hand, appears to choreograph based on what she thinks the skater is capable of doing, which can also be limiting.

 

[chopinskate]

Taking about the scores, you can see there is no Choreography score there, but Composition score (ISU changed the name of it, cause the word Choreo has different implications). And CO highly depends on things Eppen was talking about. Choreography we are talking about is something different. And im pretty sure choreography in that artistic sense is not the thing judges are judging per se. Thats why i was asking how choreography and choreographer job can impact the scores? I mean, Choreo and Composition score defined by ISU are not the same things!

Composition is part of the choreography. How you lay out your elements, how you plan your pattern, how it times with the music, in which parts of the pattern you do your movements, in order to maximize effect, are all parts of the choreography.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Composition is part of the choreography. How you lay out your elements, how you plan your pattern, how it times with the music, in which parts of the pattern you do your movements, in order to maximize effect, are all parts of the choreography.

Well, we can say that programme as a whole is a choreographed thing. Composition score depends on choreography the same way every other score can depends on it, not more or less, i would say. Transitions and level 4 StSq are part of the choreography too. We cant say there is a special score for Choreography in ISU system. Skaters scores for the same choreography are changing based on skaters skating in one exact moment.

 

[gkelly]

I will not attribute it to the skater's ability per se but on the different quirks of the choreographers.

I think it's both.

Yes, individual choreographers have quirks and preferences for how they put programs together.

But also, they can only work with what the skater is capable of.

A skater who is good at rockers and counters and choctaws, and with threes and mohawks in both directions, can do a lot more multidirectional skating and complex patterning than a skater who can only look good doing good-direction threes and mohawks.

A skater who can only land their jumps from specific approaches has fewer options than one who is comfortable enough with getting into the jump in multiple different ways.

A skater who is secure over the blades, in the knees and the body core, is better able to use the whole body expressively than one who will lose balance if she challenges herself to use her upper body off axis in creative ways.

And so forth.

Also, a choreographer may ask the skater to do more, and the skater may improve by accepting the challenge, but if it becomes clear that she can't skate a clean program if it is too challenging technically in those ways may need to take out some of the difficult turns or direction changes or body movements in order to get the same jumps landed cleanly and the steps and turns executed cleanly.

(Better to get level 3 on a step sequence without much upper body movement but enough turns and steps for level 4 than to aim for level 4 and not get all the turns counted so you end up with level 1 despite achieving the other features.)

 

[chopinskate]

Well, we can say that programme as a whole is a choreographed thing. Composition score depends on choreography the same way every other score can depends on it, not more or less, i would say. Transitions and level 4 StSq are part of the choreography too. We cant say there is a special score for Choreography in ISU system. Skaters scores for the same choreography are changing based on skaters skating in one exact moment.

But the name of the thread is "Choreography" not "Composition". It's supposed to include discussion of all these parts.