2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[TGee]

And what if she is not interested in the opinion of Anglophones? :dev3:

We'll, that's a strategic and tactical choice...

ISU competitions are a kind of global consensus in judging.

There is a real tension in selecting a program and choreography between authentically representing the culture of the nation being represented and putting forward some that others will respond to.

So, if a coach feels that the importance of the artistic message is more important than offending a significant part of the audience and judging community, then it is essential to go ahead.

And it sounds as though this was how Eteri felt about the terrorist program for Zhenya.

But, I can't see how 'Big Spender' would fall in this category.

 

[Orlov]

Asking someone if they are from the bible belt can be construed as insulting on a personal level. It implies that they are narrow minded. It is insulting to people from the bible belt (because many are not narrow minded or really believe in their opinions and see it as correct). Let's be careful with name calling please.

I feel a misunderstanding. Why "It implies that they are narrow minded"? I remind you, I'm not from your culture and do not know all your subtleties. I know that in America there is a "Bible belt" where people are very conservative. I respect that, cuz I'm a conservative myself (but kind of liberal conservative). And I understand that the discussion about the Zhenya's and Alina's EX with such a person will be go without mutual understanding. So I asked a clarifying question to avoid wasting time. BTW now I see that the grammatical structure of my question about belt was russian (I was too hasty), so may be this prevented understanding?

 

[TGee]

I feel a misunderstanding. Why "It implies that they are narrow minded"? I remind you, I'm not from your culture and do not know all your subtleties. I know that in America there is a "Bible belt" where people are very conservative. I respect that, cuz I'm a conservative myself (but kind of liberal conservative). And I understand that the discussion about the Zhenya's and Alina's EX with such a person will be go without mutual understanding. So I asked a clarifying question to avoid wasting time. BTW now I see that the grammatical structure of my question (about belt) was russian, so may be this prevented understanding?

The misunderstanding may be broader. Concern in North America about precocious sexualization of prepubescent and teenaged girls is a concern that is shared by groups that are not religiously conservative.

And many of those who would be very uncomfortable with such a performance would be otherwise seen as progressive, and would react strongly to being grouped with the religious right.

 

[Shayuki]

Pretty depressing that instead of talking about Valieva's wonderful recent performance or her improvements over the summer, or alternatively Trusova's JGP season debut tomorrow(with a wonderful short program by the way), people instead feel the most important topic to discuss is this "inappropriate music" discussion for the 500th time. It's really not so important.

Is Zhilina already in Eteri's group?

Should be.

 

[Persimmons]

English is my third language. We are all articulate individuals with the ability to reason here. If you are able to use American slang without understanding the context then I assume you have a confident understanding of american pop music as well, since that is arguably more global in reach than a regional slur. If someone doesn’t have a problem with the program, then that’s all there is to it. A difference of opinion about what is appropriate for a 14-year-old is not necessarily dictated by religious stereotypes backed by misunderstandings. It is just a difference of opinion.

 

[Orlov]

We'll, that's a strategic and tactical choice...

ISU competitions are a kind of global consensus in judging.

There is a real tension in selecting a program and choreography between authentically representing the culture of the nation being represented and putting forward some that others will respond to.

So, if a coach feels that the importance of the artistic message is more important than offending a significant part of the audience and judging community, then it is essential to go ahead.

And it sounds as though this was how Eteri felt about the terrorist program for Zhenya.

But, I can't see how 'Big Spender' would fall in this category.

First, most of the judges and the audience are not English speakers. Second, I think that for the majority of English speakers this question "is not worth a lost egg" (Russian proverb), and such conversations are either excessive conservatives or haters (pretending to be highly moral). And, in general, you can not bother with such nonsense. BTW you can not miss another point - for Russian ladies juniors, the most important thing is what happens inside the country, survives in a "Russian ladies meat grinder". So...

 

[Tolstoj]

I have to say that I consider myself to be pretty easy going but I'm not super comfortable with a 14 year old skating to big spender or my heart belongs to daddy or a bunch of britney spears or christina A. songs. I'm not sure why we feel this need to rush young women into adulthood. Let them be 14 for as long as possible.

I can understand the Big Spencer although as others already mentioned: the choreography in Trusova's SP was around the idea of just having fun, and not seducing someone.

In general I don't buy the whole "they don't understand the lyrics" or "only russian choreographers do that" since:

1) Translators exist in Russia too.

2) Western choreographers also throw inappropriate programs and sometimes inappropriate costumes. For example Eun Soo Lim (love the athlete) skating to Rich Man's Frug with a bikini costume in juniors was a bit inappropriate.

Personally i've nothing against Christina Aguilera, Beyoncé, Camilla Cabello,... programs because i guess this is what actually these young girls want to skate. Something modern, a piece from their idols they would enjoy listening. Unfortunately based on PCS judges hate that idea, and that leads me to the next point.

I remember Svetlana Panova saying in an interview few months ago that "childish / junior program gets low components" both in juniors and in seniors (for a 15 years old for example), so we can't really blame the coaches for bringing exactly what judges want to see.

 

[ancientpeas]

I feel a misunderstanding. Why "It implies that they are narrow minded"? I remind you, I'm not from your culture and do not know all your subtleties. I know that in America there is a "Bible belt" where people are very conservative. I respect that, cuz I'm a conservative myself (but kind of liberal conservative). And I understand that the discussion about the Zhenya's and Alina's EX with such a person will be go without mutual understanding. So I asked a clarifying question to avoid wasting time. BTW now I see that the grammatical structure of my question about belt was russian (I was too hasty), so may be this prevented understanding?

It is more stereotyping. The assumption being that because you are from this place you must be ______. There are stereotypes about Russians too that I'm sure would be offensive to the Russians. You are inferring that people in the "bible belt" all think a certain way and that is not the case.

If the goal is to have constructive dialogue with people then it is probably best to avoid stereotyping them or inferring that they are narrow minded. If the goal is to insult them then.. well I suggest to everyone that they not start insulting other users of the forum.

 

[Sugar Coated]

The misunderstanding may be broader. Concern in North America about precocious sexualization of prepubescent and teenaged girls is a concern that is shared by groups that are not religiously conservative.

And many of those who would be very uncomfortable with such a performance would be otherwise seen as progressive, and would react strongly to being grouped with the religious right.

I defended Big Spender. At least gave them the benefit of the doubt that there was nuance that was easily missed by non-native speakers. But the clip from Zhenya’s exhibition two years ago? I had not seen that before. It’s clearly a 16-year-old skating to a woman orgasming. Like that seems like a pretty universally understood sound. To me that’s pretty tasteless to have a teenager skate to something like that, it disrespects their athletic and artistic ability by sexualizing young girls. In fact any thing with them stripping off clothes seems pretty tacky or unnecessary and demeaning to their art. If they do it as adults that’s their choice but it feels wrong to choreograph this for girls. And I’m not opposed to them embracing their sexuality to a degree, as long as it’s not super explicit as these programs seem to be. But that’s just me. I consider myself very liberal (non-bible belt) but I know America can be prudish.

 

[ancientpeas]

I can understand the Big Spencer although as others already mentioned: the choreography in Trusova's SP was around the idea of just having fun, and not seducing someone.

In general I don't buy the whole "they don't understand the lyrics" or "only russian choreographers do that" since:

1) Translators exist in Russia too.

2) Western choreographers also throw inappropriate programs and sometimes inappropriate costumes. For example Eun Soo Lim (love the athlete) skating to Rich Man's Frug with a bikini costume in juniors was a bit inappropriate.

Personally i've nothing against Christina Aguilera, Beyoncé, Camilla Cabello,... programs because i guess this is what actually these young girls want to skate. Something modern, a piece from their idols they would enjoy listening. Unfortunately based on PCS judges hate that idea, and that leads me to the next point.

I remember Svetlana Panova saying in an interview few months ago that "childish / junior program gets low components" both in juniors and in seniors (for a 15 years old for example), so we can't really blame the coaches for bringing exactly what judges want to see.

I really don't think it is a "Russian" problem. The sexualization of young people (mostly girls but boys too) makes me uncomfortable. I would not presume to tell Eteri not to use Big Spender or that type of music. I just am not comfortable with it and would rather it be more what I consider age appropriate.

There are Christina A and Britney Spears songs that I do think are appropriate for a 14 year old to skate to. Beautiful for example or even Fighter or Hurt from Christina A. or You drive me Crazy or Crazy or Lucky are pretty age appropriate for a 14 year old. I do not feel songs like Dirrty or I'm a Slave 4 U are appropriate. I'd be fine with a 14 year old skating to Halo or If I were a boy but something like Bootilicious is not. But those are my opinions.


My discomfort does not mean that it should not be used but just as they can use it I can feel uncomfortable with it.

 

[ancientpeas]

And I'm going to say this is probably off topic to this thread. So apologies all around.

I'm going to consider if this could possible be a thread that wouldn't end in unpleasantness.

 

[ramed]

Pretty depressing that instead of talking about Valieva's wonderful recent performance or her improvements over the summer, or alternatively Trusova's JGP season debut tomorrow(with a wonderful short program by the way), people instead feel the most important topic to discuss is this "inappropriate music" discussion for the 500th time. It's really not so important.

I can't agree more... Dare I suggest to leave these pseudo-moralistic discussions to a different thread or even forum and start talking about more worthy and relevant subjects, for example, Moscow Junior Open where Kamila Valiyeva and Dasha Usacheva absolutely shone in short program.

 

[ramed]

The entire Ladies SP of Moscow Junior Open 2018: https://youtu.be/bNygQkA5_0E

 

[Amef]

The entire Ladies SP of Moscow Junior Open 2018: https://youtu.be/bNygQkA5_0E

When is the FS starting?

 

[Shayuki]

When is the FS starting?

11:30 - 14:45 Moscow time.

Pretty weak until the last few groups, though.

I'll be at home around 13:00 and hopefully won't have missed anything important.

 

[TGee]

11:30 - 14:45 Moscow time.

Pretty weak until the last few groups, though.

I'll be at home around 13:00 and hopefully won't have missed anything important.

So, they are seeded coming into the test skates?

 

[Elucidus]

I noticed Gubanova's jumps became uglier, with huge prerotations. Some new technique she developed now with new coach to fight puberty? Also there were at least two UR jumps - but only one was called. And her beautiful arms movements from last season.. were destroyed :noshake: I was surprised to see her in mere 60+ range and Valieva in 70+ knowing russian judges shortsightedness and Buyanova-TAT influence, tbh

 

[TGee]

I noticed Gubanova's jumps became uglier, with huge prerotations. Some new technique she developed now with new coach to fight puberty? Also there were at least two UR jumps - but only one was called. And her beautiful arms movements from last season.. were destroyed :noshake: I was surprised to see her in mere 60+ range and Valieva in 70+ knowing russian judges shortsightedness and Buyanova-TAT influence, tbh

I confess that I find the arm movements of many recent CSKA skaters excessive and out of line with the rate of movement of the legs and torso - even when the individual arm positions are lovely in themselves.

It's clearly a choreographic choice, but it's striking to see when we know Gubanova is capable of lovely soft, classic arms.

 

[50 Words for Snow]

I speak English too and yet I wouldn’t know the words. English is my second language, so I am not always attuned to listening the words. Sometimes you can get into song without really listening to words. For Eteri English is her second language too so she may also not always listens to words.

English is an incredibly nuanced and slangy language. Words often mean two different things and that is before we even get into innuendo and irony. A person might be fluently bilingual but unless they are also exposed to a lot of English pop culture they are unlikely to know that some words have weird double meanings. This does not even take into account the number of words that sound just like other words but mean different things.

Eteri lived in America for years and is quite fluent in English. She knows exactly what the song is about and still chose to have a child skate to it, just like she dressed another child in a skin-tight tiger costume and had her writhe sensuously on the ice. It is a pattern, and it is a disturbing one. That being said, the choreography she gave to Sasha for the song is cute and sassy, not sexy at all, and it comes across as a child's "date" to the candy store or the like and nothing more, but she could just as easily have given Sasha some cute and sassy choreography that was not set to a song filled with sexual innuendo.

 

[LiamForeman]

Big Spender is an over the top song, and really one that a little girl playing dress up should be skating to. A grown woman would look ridiculous skating to it, someone like Osmond probably would do it. Also, in America 14 y/o is freshman year of high school, and I'd say many if not most of my friends my freshman year were sexually active, so the age isn't an issue for me. Of course they all had mature/ing bodies and didn't look like a ten year old either. But it didn't bother me to skate to a fun, campy song. No clutching of pearls here.