2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Ziotic]

For me, ability to do crossovers is irrelevant, since this move is repeated very few times in programs i like. I dont care about crossovers, because i dont want to see any of them, good or bad.
As for skating skills in general, I would like a detailed analysis please, with videos / gifs. Because, for example, while watching the japanese "obstacle" thingy, it was obvious that Alina's skating skills are miles ahead of Zhenya's skating skills, for example. Please illustrate.

When people talk about skating skills without explaining, I always remember that user on russian forums that was bashing Alina's skating skills. Then, someone made a gif of the feet, and that user went on a whole rant of how terrible the skating skills. Turns out the feet belonged to Kostner.

Crossovers are a fundamental part of skating, whether you want to see them or not being able to do them is literally part of the foundation of skating skills.

Here are some examples from this https://youtu.be/z5zLJ3ylAWo video;
-Her counter going into the axel, her foot has to come off the ice because she can’t control the edge
- her swinging left arm on the crossovers after the 2A
- she’s on the back of her blade at the lutz landing and has to adjust her balance to do the toe
- bent leg on the Ina Bauer coming out of the toe
-her spinning radius is very large and she falls out of the ending of her first spin
- the 3Lo is >> real time and I don’t know how that didn’t get called
- she looses balance after the 3 jump combo
- her stsq is laboured and she doesn’t gain speed from her edges but slows down

Now I’m not saying that other skaters don’t have similar issues or issue of their own, but I don’t find her skating is effortless enough to garner the PCS marks she receives.

For TR, sure give the girl a 10 (although watching this I noticed she does a lot of bubbles before her transitionjump! MO), but SS should be like 8, IN 8.5, PE 8.5, CO 9.

I detest that judges don’t differentiate between the different PCS categories.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I think IN should be at least a 9. Alina really tries to portray her characters, and a lot of her elements are timed to the music. The ISU judges interpretation of the music, not of the program. Alina’s programs match the music.

Also, I think CO should be 8.75 at the maximum. Daniil’s choreography for Alina is just... not there.

 

[Ziotic]

I think IN should be at least a 9. Alina really tries to portray her characters, and a lot of her elements are timed to the music. The ISU judges interpretation of the music, not of the program. Alina’s programs match the music.

Also, I think CO should be 8.75 at the maximum. Daniil’s choreography for Alina is just... not there.

I find the opposite. The choreography is fine, she’s just not selling it. Or at least not in a way that I’m buying it.

Or rather the composition is appropriate but her interpretation is not working for me.

 

[melgirl25]

You know, I can actually understand this. Absolutely. Honestly, I’m Zhenya‘s fan but even I preferred her Averbukh programs simply because she was excelling at doing them - she has a talent to tell a story through a program. They were dramatic and emotional and touched me in a very special way. Her new ones are good. They are nice programs. I like them. But it‘s not something that makes me feel the story with her while she skates. Even though she‘s definitely my favourite skater and I will always support her, I had kind of mixed feelings about her programs this season. But then I thought about it again and realised something. It‘s just what I experienced and I can totally accept if you are unhappy with her programs or think they make her weaknesses show. Because they do. They are two completely new styles and Zhenya is just not used at all to interpreting them. All she knows is „dramatic“ and “cute“ - Her competitive programs being the former, Sailor Moon the latter. How would she know how to do a tango or a sexy jazz program? She doesn’t. So naturally, these programs seem like they don‘t fit her. It’s something admirable, though, isn’t it? At least for me. Going for something you totally know isn’t your strength, you have never done before and have the confidence to show it on a big stage. That‘s what I find brave about her. She wants new experiences - her whole move and change of training, her new haircut and the new programs make it obvious, they aren‘t what “the Evgenia Medvedeva“ used to be like and I think she wants to emphasize this. Kind of a new chapter in her life. Just sometimes happens that you need that. And she’s going at it with full speed. She isn‘t afraid to work on things she might have problems with initially. I think her programs can still grow, get better. They have potential. Zhenya has potential. Like you said, she is good, the programs are good she just doesn‘t know how to pull them off (yet).

I still think they could (and probably should) have left either the jazz/tango program for next season and done one that is closer to her usual style. It would have given her more time to get into the character of the new style better. Now she has two completely new styles - and that‘s exactly where it gets complicated. And to top that off she had less time to prepare and work than her competitors, mainly Alina who sadly seems to always be one step ahead of her this season.

It’s her decision, though. I accept that because I’m her fan. Not everyone is and that‘s okay. I can understand why they‘re annoyed about her programs then. Zhenya at the moment just isn‘t excelling at them like she used to do with her old programs. It can make it look like she regressed. I think she didn’t. I think it‘s just what automatically happens when you leave your comfort zone and move on to something new. It‘s the normal process of learning something. You can‘t be good at everything right from the beginning. I find it brave and courageous and personally, I applaud her for doing it. I think she can improve and will definitely do it. There were already a lot of visible changes from ACI to SCI. By how much, however? That we will see, but in the end she at least had the guts to go for it.

I think however, that by next season her program will be suited more for her. This season was just marked by a lack of time. It will be interesting to see what they do but I’m sure Brian‘s team and her will make sure her new programs will blow everyone away because that‘s what she needs if she wants to survive the “envasion of the quad girls“.

Just my two cents on this topic. You don‘t have to agree with it and I won‘t force my opinion on anyone. Just providing something to think about maybe and discuss.

Right on fluture. I also see the points moriel makes. The programs do show her weakness and it would be easy to revert back to an old style. However, then she would never grow as a skater. I am aware though that the programs should be chosen more wisely next season. Do you think she would ever work with Averbukh again? He is in Russia but lots of choreographers work with skaters in other countries, right? I don't know Shae Lynn's work, but I will look it up. It could also be another risk to work with yet another choreographer next season when she already has a good track record with Ilia.

It was brought up that skating to Carmen also requires a certain maturity. I am not sure what people think of Alina's ability to perform that sort of role. I really like the Habanera bit and get sucked into it but after that its not that great - to me.

 

[moriel]

But overall, i am not claiming Zhenya should revert to old style at all.
But the change should have been slower so she has time to adapt, and the choreographer has time to learn what works for her.

 

[Amei]

You know, I can actually understand this. Absolutely. Honestly, I’m Zhenya‘s fan but even I preferred her Averbukh programs simply because she was excelling at doing them - she has a talent to tell a story through a program. They were dramatic and emotional and touched me in a very special way. Her new ones are good. They are nice programs. I like them. But it‘s not something that makes me feel the story with her while she skates. Even though she‘s definitely my favourite skater and I will always support her, I had kind of mixed feelings about her programs this season. But then I thought about it again and realised something. It‘s just what I experienced and I can totally accept if you are unhappy with her programs or think they make her weaknesses show. Because they do. They are two completely new styles and Zhenya is just not used at all to interpreting them. All she knows is „dramatic“ and “cute“ - Her competitive programs being the former, Sailor Moon the latter. How would she know how to do a tango or a sexy jazz program? She doesn’t. So naturally, these programs seem like they don‘t fit her. It’s something admirable, though, isn’t it? At least for me. Going for something you totally know isn’t your strength, you have never done before and have the confidence to show it on a big stage. That‘s what I find brave about her. She wants new experiences - her whole move and change of training, her new haircut and the new programs make it obvious, they aren‘t what “the Evgenia Medvedeva“ used to be like and I think she wants to emphasize this. Kind of a new chapter in her life. Just sometimes happens that you need that. And she’s going at it with full speed. She isn‘t afraid to work on things she might have problems with initially. I think her programs can still grow, get better. They have potential. Zhenya has potential. Like you said, she is good, the programs are good she just doesn‘t know how to pull them off (yet).

I still think they could (and probably should) have left either the jazz/tango program for next season and done one that is closer to her usual style. It would have given her more time to get into the character of the new style better. Now she has two completely new styles - and that‘s exactly where it gets complicated. And to top that off she had less time to prepare and work than her competitors, mainly Alina who sadly seems to always be one step ahead of her this season.

It’s her decision, though. I accept that because I’m her fan. Not everyone is and that‘s okay. I can understand why they‘re annoyed about her programs then. Zhenya at the moment just isn‘t excelling at them like she used to do with her old programs. It can make it look like she regressed. I think she didn’t. I think it‘s just what automatically happens when you leave your comfort zone and move on to something new. It‘s the normal process of learning something. You can‘t be good at everything right from the beginning. I find it brave and courageous and personally, I applaud her for doing it. I think she can improve and will definitely do it. There were already a lot of visible changes from ACI to SCI. By how much, however? That we will see, but in the end she at least had the guts to go for it.

I think however, that by next season her program will be suited more for her. This season was just marked by a lack of time. It will be interesting to see what they do but I’m sure Brian‘s team and her will make sure her new programs will blow everyone away because that‘s what she needs if she wants to survive the “envasion of the quad girls“.

Just my two cents on this topic. You don‘t have to agree with it and I won‘t force my opinion on anyone. Just providing something to think about maybe and discuss.

I agree with what you said she's doing 2 new styles for her, which is strange - we get dancing videos from Sambo all the time showing the skaters dancing choreography but then here's this skater that was at Sambo for most of her development/career up until this year and yet here are 2 fairly common dance styles that seem to be completely alien to her.

 

[IceBallerina]

Right on fluture. I also see the points moriel makes. The programs do show her weakness and it would be easy to revert back to an old style. However, then she would never grow as a skater. I am aware though that the programs should be chosen more wisely next season. Do you think she would ever work with Averbukh again? He is in Russia but lots of choreographers work with skaters in other countries, right? I don't know Shae Lynn's work, but I will look it up. It could also be another risk to work with yet another choreographer next season when she already has a good track record with Ilia.

It was brought up that skating to Carmen also requires a certain maturity. I am not sure what people think of Alina's ability to perform that sort of role. I really like the Habanera bit and get sucked into it but after that its not that great - to me.

Shae Lynn is an amazing choreographer. She’s done Yuzuru’s H&L, Seimei, and now Origin. She did Wakaba’s bond. She did Nathan’s nemesis and his short this year. Her programs are very intricate.

Personally I’d like Zhenya to work with someone other than David. He creates lovely programs, but in my opinion they’re a bit empty and not really personalized. As someone in this thread said (I forgot who sorry) his programs could be skated by anyone really, they don’t add in a skaters personality. Next year I hope Zhenya can work with someone else like Shae, Jeffrey Buttle, or even Averbukh again.

I’d actually love if all the Eteri girls could work with whoever they wanted. Not because Daniil doesn’t make good programs, I think it’s just good to do something different and work with a different approach from time to time. I’m sure Shae would come up with something incredible for Sasha, something fierce. She is tiny boss after all.

On the topic of Alina’s Carmen… I love it. Again, choreography is art and art is subjective. I get the arguments and problems people have with the program but I really love it. To each their own.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

To quote atsurimi
“Same old, same old”

Those who think Eteri skaters have good programs will never change their point of view because those suit their tastes.

No thank you, I will stick to watching quality skating skills from artistic women. Not girls would can’t do crossovers.

Well you sound rather one sided in this post and if you don’t see that less emphasis is being placed on Zhenya’s Skating Skills for theatrical type movements I think you are intentionally putting blinders on.

Her fast and light skating has been replaced with shoulder play and leg kicks. These are not her strengths and I’ve always questioned the point value of such things. I haven’t given up on her because while I’ve been critical of her programs at times I’ve always been supportive of her. Even when she had one of those “Eteri girls programs”. I love when Zhenya slays and delivers. I hope to see more of it.

I think she has the ability to improve which is promising but this concept that she is now better than ever is a tough sell not only in this thread but most importantly with trained professional judges. She’s on the outside looking in right now. That’s never happened before. Maybe Brian can figure something out...but let’s be real. Eteri skaters have very high quality programs and no amount of shade you can drum up in this or any thread will ever change that. I can respect Zhenya and Brian’s efforts and still remain respectful of her competition.

I also think the disrespect you give to Zhenya’s peers is a huge disservice to her and Brian. Can’t we just let the results speak for themselves and pull for all the ladies for giving us their best :giveup:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Saying my prayers for Gubanova to show her best

 

[zounger]

For TR, sure give the girl a 10 (although watching this I noticed she does a lot of bubbles before her transitionjump! MO), but SS should be like 8, IN 8.5, PE 8.5, CO 9.

So, your score could have been: 1.6 x(10+8+8.5+8.5+9) = 70.4 PCS. Her actual score was 72.11 PCS. I don't see such an atrocious overscoring.

I detest that judges don’t differentiate between the different PCS categories.

This is a general truth and I would like the judges to apply it.

 

[esteticlove]

The ISU judges interpretation of the music, not of the program. Alina’s programs match the music.

I said it once - hitting the music notes with jumps/leg grabbing doesn't mean that the music is interpreted perfectly. My main problem is that it always feels like as if the skater is just waiting for the music accent to make the movement/element and it breaks the coherence of the program. Still, I think most people are fine with Alina's slightly overscored PCs when we compare her and other international skaters, even with most of the Russian ladies on the senior podium. And I am fine too. However, prompting such kind of interpretation with high scores becomes problematic when skaters like Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova face each other in the same competition. Because I would never be fine to see a difference of 1-2P in PCs between Trusova and Scherbakova, even Kostornaia. :noshake:

 

[Alex65]

when skaters like Trusova, Kostornaia and Scherbakova face each other in the same competition. Because I would never be fine to see a difference of 1-2P in PCs between Trusova and Scherbakova, even Kostornaia. :noshake:[/QUOTE]
I think it should not be considered to consider PCS separately from TES. If you look objectively, a skater with more complex elements with high BV has less opportunities and time for an artistic interpretation of the program, and also always has a greater risk of spoiling something. So, in fact, if Kostornaya and Trusova get roughly equal to PCS, this is an estimate in favor of Kostornaya. Everything else is subjective.

 

[esteticlove]

So, in fact, if Kostornaya and Trusova get roughly equal to PCS, this is an estimate in favor of Kostornaya. Everything else is subjective.

Sorry, I can't really understand this par, it could be because of my limited English skills. Could you elaborate, how is this a favor of Kostornaya when they are basically getting almost the same PCs?

 

[surimi]

But overall, i am not claiming Zhenya should revert to old style at all.
But the change should have been slower so she has time to adapt, and the choreographer has time to learn what works for her.

This. My problem with her programs this year in a nutshell. I wish they'd settled for something between what she used to do and what she's doing now. The move was bold and brave, like Fluture says, yes, but also unwise IMO. They're trying to pass her for a sassy type of skater that she's not at this point.

Her fast and light skating has been replaced with shoulder play and leg kicks. These are not her strengths and I’ve always questioned the point value of such things. I haven’t given up on her because while I’ve been critical of her programs at times I’ve always been supportive of her. Even when she had one of those “Eteri girls programs”. I love when Zhenya slays and delivers. I hope to see more of it.

All she knows is „dramatic“ and “cute“ - Her competitive programs being the former, Sailor Moon the latter.

I disagree, I think that's an oversimplification. How is e.g. River Flows in You dramatic? The way I see it, the new programs, along with her new gala, ask for a sassy/seductive/etc interpretation, and that's the department she's lacking in. She can be girlish, sophisticated and ladylike (don't tell me she'd be unable to tackle a Viennese waltz for example), but she's not the mature tango/jazz/rhumba/etc type. Maybe in a few years, but not yet. IMO. And that goes for her packaging as well, not just the music. She needs something more sophisticated, the way I see it.

 

[Alex65]

Ok. With equal technical content PCS Alena should be higher. Or Sasha below, if you like it more.( But not much )

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ok. With equal technical content PCS Alena should be higher. Or Sasha below, if you like it more.

I would score them pretty equal despite those reasons being completely different.

I think people tend to underestimate how good Sasha’s skating skills are. She’s more of a power skater than Alena and it’s completely different styles but both girls have great Skating Skills. I also think Sasha has the best programs from Danil this season and is more dynamic. Both girls slay the transitions. I can’t think of any reason they shouldn’t score equally when they both deliver good performances.

My main point is two skaters can score the same 9 in SS with completely different strengths

 

[Alex65]

I fully agree with you. Just Trusova vs. Kostornaya was a convenient example to show the dependence between PCS and BV

 

[katymay]

I fully agree with you. Just Trusova vs. Kostornaya was a convenient example to show the dependence between PCS and BV

My idea would be to dump the PCS score all together. BV + GOE ends up, for the most part, being exactly the same results. I've always felt that the PCS score is way to continue to manipulate the results.

 

[Fluture]

My idea would be to dump the PCS score all together. BV + GOE ends up, for the most part, being exactly the same results. I've always felt that the PCS score is way to continue to manipulate the results.

If that happens I will stop watching this sport altogether. Because then the artistic component that made me love figure skating in the first place will be completely lost. It will end up as a jumping fest + a few spins. It was the special mix between artistry and athleticism that intrigued me. I rather have manipulated PCS instead of no PCS at all. This still gives me the opportunity to watch skaters who care about artistry instead of just performing the most difficult elements in a row. And I think that’s what actually made the sport so popular. It‘s the beauty of having admirable physical strength mixed with art. And this is pretty unique, especially in Winter Sports. I personally think that if we get rid of the PCS element in scoring, it won‘t do figure skating any favour. It will reduce one of the two essential parts it‘s made of and do nothing against manipulation of results. You can still do that with GOE only, it won‘t change a single thing at all.

 

[Ziotic]

So, your score could have been: 1.6 x(10+8+8.5+8.5+9) = 70.4 PCS. Her actual score was 72.11 PCS. I don't see such an atrocious overscoring.

Sorry I should have been more clear, those aren’t the scores I would have given.

I don’t think she deserves a 10 for transitions, but with current judging those scores would at least be appropriate.

If I were a judge I would likely have SS-7.5, TR- 9, CO- 8.5, IN- 7.75, PE- 8 = 65.2.

For comparison(since it’s the Russian thread) I would have Staysa with; SS- 7.75, TR- 8.25, CO- 8, IN-8.25, PE- 8.25 = 64.8

Now also keep in mind I’m talking specifically about there skates at GP Finland. Alina was shaky and nervous while I think that may be one of the better skates Stasya can do.