Canada World Results 2008

[chuckm]

Again, I disagree. Joannie’s use of her upper body and arms in her jumps is textbook good technique and the main reason she so rarely underrotates. I was just marveling at how quickly she’s able to rotate her jumps because of the great snap she gets with her arms on takeoff. When she does miss a jump it’s usually because the timing is off or she’s picked in the wrong spot, not because she’s tight or stiff in the upper body. A tight upper body is a good thing in a jump. The little flubs at the end of her programs this season are most likely just due to nervous adrenaline running out.

It's one thing to have the correct technique when executing jumps, quite another to continue that stiff, unmoving torso during the non-jump portions of the program. When Yu-Na and Mao skate, their upper bodies move gracefully as they skate, presenting a harmonious visual union of music and body position. Watch their shoulders in relation to their hips--they express the music with their upper bodies as well as with their arms. And they skate with such ease and flow!

Joannie appears very stiff and rigid by comparison, and apparently the judges see that as well. She seems to be so tense throughout her programs that I never get the impression of relaxation or ease of movement when I watch Joannie skate.

Again, you are a fan and you see the best in Joannie, as is your right. But I tend to look at her skating through the judges' eyes. There is a reason why Joannie doesn't get the high PCS scores that Yu-Na and Mao do, and it isn't entirely because of technical content.

 

[backoutsideedge]

chuckm, we get it. You hate Canadian skaters. You are on a mission to bad mouth them in all related posts. It would appreciated, however, if you could try to stay out of such threads, please.

Just curious why are you always so negative and bitchy all the time? Your posts just repeat, repeat, repeat themselves in this uber downer, uber depressed loathsome tone. Not happy in real life? Some Canadian piss in your cornflakes?

 

[laceup]

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Thank you, backoutsideedge, for telling chuckm exactly what I've been thinking about his posts for a while now

 

[nadster]

chuckm

Although I agree with many of your points please consider that Bryce was not 100% at the GPF. He was carrying an injury which forced him to put his singles on the backburner ( he withdrew from the senior challenges in mens which he had to do to qualify at nationals). Dube did compete in the challenges in ladies.

And D/D do have an excellent line with their bodies. The problem is that their lack of speed ( relative to the Germans) visually curtails the line ( again compared to the Germans). Your lines do look "longer" the faster you skate.

I am willing to admit that D/D have shortcomings that will keep them from the podium at Worlds this year ( speed and power the biggest issues) but I am also willing to admit what their strengths are.

 

[chuckm]

I don't hate Canadian skaters, not at all. I think D/D have many fine qualities, especially their on-ice relationship with one another and the trust they share. I think Joannie Rochette is very talented and would have been more successful up to now than she has been due to her own insecurity and self-doubt.

But I find that Canadian fans have a tendency to overstate the case for the skaters they like. That is often the case for the top Canadian skaters (Buttle, Chan, V/M, Rochette, D/D).

There are many skaters I like, but my expectations of their placing on the podium is very much colored by reality. I like Johnny Weir, Evan Lysacek, Kimmie Meissner, Belbin/Agosto and McLaughlin/Brubaker. However, I do not see Weir or Lysacek winning Worlds this year or probably any year in the near future. The odds of one of them placing on the podium at Worlds 2008 is not great, but it is far more likely to be Lysacek than Weir, and I personally prefer Weir. I do think both of them will place in the top 10. As much as I like Kimmie Meissner, her chances of finishing in the top 6 this season aren't promising, but top 10 is possible. I'd love B/A to win Worlds, but I don't think that is going to happen. Sure, I'd like to see McLaughlin/Brubaker contend for a medal next season, but that is not likely to happen, and a top 10 finish would be a good start for them. Jeremy Abbott is one of my all-time favorites, but I never have any expectations for him. I just like to watch him skate and enjoy what he does well, and not worry about the scores or his unexpected mistakes.

Look at it this way: if fans are expecting Rochette and D/D to finish on the podium, they are probably are going to be very disappointed. If fans have more realistic expectations and then the skaters exceed those expectations, it makes for great happiness. I prefer happiness to disappointment, so I keep my expectations for my favorite skaters anchored inreality.

Capisce?

 

[laceup]

I think I am pretty realistic in my hopes for my favourite Canadian skaters. I do not believe we will be on the podium in any event this year. I think V/M will be the closest - in 4th followed by D/D in 5th then Joannie in 5th or 6th ... the men ... who knows who will even be on the podium at Nationals so we'll have to wait and see with them. I think the problem, chuckm, is that you seem to point out all the faults and none of the assets about these athletes which tends to get peoples backs up. In your most recent post you did find a few nice things to say, so thanks for that.

 

[chuckm]

The assets of the skaters have been well-stated by their fans, and my posts are usually a response to a previous glowing accolade. My posts are intended to introduce reality into the discussion, which of course means pointing out some of the negatives to even the balance. So you have to read BOTH ends of the discussion.

 

[laceup]

I have read this entire thread which basicly states that no one really thinks Canadians will be on the podium in any event this year (which I agree with). Some people think V/M and D/D and R stand outside chances if other skaters don't skate well. It sounds to me like most posters are praising these athletes in response to your negative comments, chuckm, and you can't blame them for that. As Forrest Gump would say "and that's all I've got to say about that!!!".

 

[rain]

And D/D do have an excellent line with their bodies. The problem is that their lack of speed.

I could not agree more. In fact, I think one of their strengths is their exceptional classic *matching* lines. But they don't have the speed of the top teams yet and I hope to see some improvement in that since their early competitions this season. I would also like to see Dube looking more confident in her triple sal, which she used to do with such ease. This season it seems to have been more of a sticking point for her. I still think, they along with about three other teams including the Russians and Ukrainians have an outside shot at the podium if there are screw-ups at the top.

 

[Pikachuusb]

Although, Im sure I'll get reamed for this, I agree with what chuckm says. He's like the Simon Cowell(American Idol judge) of skating webboards. You may not like how he says it but he's usually on the mark.

I honestly dont think ANY of the Canadian teams have a shot for the podium. Much to my sadness

Rochette is great when she's on, but she really hasnt been in awhile. I doubt she will be in the top 5 unless several have a meltdown. I seriously think the podium will be Yu-Na, Mao & Miki with Yukari & Carolina rounding out the top 5. Joannie will definately be top 10 but thats not the podium. I think Joannie, Kimmie & Emily will all be fighting for the spots 6-10 with a few others.

I LOVE Jeffrey & and really impressed with Patrick but I dont see them w/medals. It would be nice but not realistic. Ideally Id love to see Shawn Sawyer on the podium at Nationals & Worlds but he probably wont even get the 2nd spot at Nationals. Like w/Joannie I think both Jeffrey & Patrick will get top 10 but Stephane, Daisuke & Brian will all be battling for top position on the podium. I think Johnny & Evan will probably round out the top 5. Jeffrey, Patrick, Tomas & a few others will be fighting for 6-10. I wish Jeffrey could get it together again because he is a joy to see.

D/D will be fighting for 4th with Kawaguchi & Smirnov in my opinion. 1st thru 3rd will more than likely be S/S, Pang & Tong and the Zhangs. One or more could have a serious meltdown but Im not really seeing that happen. I just dont think D/D have what it takes right now to beat out the top 3. I like them alot but they are not as captivating and dont have the tricks or difficulty like the others. Maybe in a few years but as of now I even think the Olympic podium will be looking the same unless Shen & Zhao return and then everything is out the window.

As for Tessa & Scott I think they are right on the cusp of a podium finish but I dont see them actually getting on it this year. Maybe next year. They are a beautiful team but I think age is not on their side.

I know its not what people want to hear, but why wear rose colored glasses then be disappointed in them when they dont place as high as you had hoped? :scratch:

I choose to be a fan but also choose to have realistic expectations for them. I hope Im wrong in my predictions but I dont think I am.

 

[vintagefigureskater]

It sounds to me like most posters are praising these athletes in response to your negative comments, chuckm, and you can't blame them for that. As Forrest Gump would say "and that's all I've got to say about that!!!".

This is actually the case. I don't post often, but my Canuck sense of “nice” was mortally offended. But I’m over it now. Still can’t imagine why anyone would want to wander into a forum dedicated to another county’s nationals and make such negative comments about their skaters though. And about D&D of all people, the poor kids.......Truth be known, I’m typically pretty objective about our skaters and, could just as easily come up with a list of things D&D or our other skaters need to work on as one that lists their strengths.

chuckm, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Meet you back here same time next year for another round.

Over and out and off to Vancouver………..

 

[bems]

Predictions Canadians and Worlds

What a great debate!

As a Canadian, I have enjoyed watching us dominate for so long. We have had many advantages, after the WW2 when Europe had few rinks left standing, many European Coaches came to Canada including , Burka, Duvin, and later Jiranek and Ullmark. In 1961 the entire US team was lost in an air crash and Canadians stepped forward to represent North America well during this period. These international events, allowed us to develop a legacy of providing some of the best training facilities in the World which are now sought by the likes of all international skaters including, Joubert, Oda, Kim, Kostner and Poykio to name a few. Even the Chinese pairs have sought out Lori Nichol. We are still admired by others.

Today Internationally, Figure Skating is a world class sport. It is great to see so many skaters from all countries pushing the envelope. It keeps our sport relevant.

We have gone a long way to get politics out of judging so that as fans we can watch (and cheer for) the best of the best regardless of Nationality

 

[rain]

Although, Im sure I'll get reamed for this, I agree with what chuckm says. He's like the Simon Cowell(American Idol judge) of skating webboards. You may not like how he says it but he's usually on the mark.

I honestly dont think ANY of the Canadian teams have a shot for the podium. Much to my sadness

I know its not what people want to hear, but why wear rose colored glasses then be disappointed in them when they dont place as high as you had hoped? :scratch:

I choose to be a fan but also choose to have realistic expectations for them. I hope Im wrong in my predictions but I dont think I am.

See frankly this is what annoys me. Almost nobody in this thread has said they think any Canadians will be on the podium at worlds. So why act as though you and Chuckm are the only ones that are being realistic? (And further, Chuckm's posts often contain a lot more negative opinion — like that D/D have poor lines — than fact, simply cloaked in lots and lots of numbers.) I don't think you'll find many rose-coloured glasses if you take the time to read through the posts.

Some of us simply chose to go on from our prediction that no Canadians would make the podium and say who we thought had the best slim chance at it, should the top podium contenders in the world perform uncharacteristically poorly. I think your predictions are pretty much exactly like everyone elses.

 

[chuckm]

Some of us simply chose to go on from our prediction that no Canadians would make the podium and say who we thought had the best slim chance at it, should the top podium contenders in the world perform uncharacteristically poorly. I think your predictions are pretty much exactly like everyone elses.

Sure, the Canadians could podium if the best skaters don't skate well.
But that in itself says that the Canadians couldn't win medals if the best skaters did skate well. That is exactly the same thing I am saying, since most of the time, the top skaters DO skate well! :sheesh:

 

[Pikachuusb]

See frankly this is what annoys me. Almost nobody in this thread has said they think any Canadians will be on the podium at worlds. So why act as though you and Chuckm are the only ones that are being realistic? (And further, Chuckm's posts often contain a lot more negative opinion — like that D/D have poor lines — than fact, simply cloaked in lots and lots of numbers.) I don't think you'll find many rose-coloured glasses if you take the time to read through the posts.

Some of us simply chose to go on from our prediction that no Canadians would make the podium and say who we thought had the best slim chance at it, should the top podium contenders in the world perform uncharacteristically poorly. I think your predictions are pretty much exactly like everyone elses.

I dont "act" like Im the "only person" being realistic. Unknown to you I did read ALL of the posts. And yes I know others thought the same thing about them not making the podium. I however didnt get bent out of shape and "annoyed" when others didnt think they werent going to be on the podium. People need to relax and calm down. Its just a discussion and everyone has opinions. Theres no need to get upset. because someone doesnt think that someone will be on the podium or that they dont have good lines or they dont have enough numbers to win. And unfortunately numbers is what the event is all about now. Who has the numbers/points. Since 6.0 is gone you gotta rack those numbers up. And as you said everyones predictions are pretty much the same, so theres no need to get angry at someone for stating the same thing, is there?

 

[Winnipeg]

FYI, there was an article in today's Globe and Mail re an interview with Bryce. He was quoted as stating their goal is 2010 and if they finish 4-5th this year at Worlds, then they are 'on track' for peaking in 2010.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080108.wsptskate8/GSStory/GlobeSportsOther/home

Sorry, don't know how to get the actual link, but there is the address.

They are aware of their need to improve speed and difficulty and will be continuing to work on this in the time leading to 2010.

As a fan, I really like their skating style because I think they have a great connection or 'it' factor (sorry for the trite description but that's what came to mind). IMO, if their diffuclty gets higher (which was one concern I had expressed earlier as I do think it needs to be upped so to speak) then I think they are better artistically that the other 4 teams mentioned here. If not this year, then next unless an injury comes up.



WRT Dance.....................this is where my ire gets up. I have seen so much written in this and other threads that leads me to believe the dance competition will NOT be based on skating but rather the composition of the judging panel and age of teams - the old 'wait for your turn' typical ISU logic (or illogic) . :banging::banging::banging::scowl::scowl:

I think V and M are one of the best dance teams today and they should be on the podium if they skate well..................if there is commentary and discussion that the event is rigged, I guess I'll have to return to the days where I completely boycotted the event (except maybe the final group at Nationals in the FD only):disapp::disapp:Their age should have NOTHING to do with it. They have been together for years and years and their performance should be judged.

There, I'll stop the dance rampage and ranting now.

Ladies, no comment, I do not see a podium finish there from now til the proverbial cows come home (sadly).

Men is possible but not this year, maybe next with Chan or even Andreev depending on how he comes along?

 

[Pikachuusb]

FYI, there was an article in today's Globe and Mail re an interview with Bryce. He was quoted as stating their goal is 2010 and if they finish 4-5th this year at Worlds, then they are 'on track' for peaking in 2010.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080108.wsptskate8/GSStory/GlobeSportsOther/home

Sorry, don't know how to get the actual link, but there is the address

Oh God lets not have any more injuries. Isnt it funny I hold my breath during the side by side spins now. Ugh.

Thank you sooo much for the article

I think they are on track for great things:yes: and Im glad they acknowledge that they need to improve speed and difficulty. Sometimes you wonder if they(skaters) know what they need to improve on or if they think its perfect the way it is. I know when I skate or dance Im always wondering what can be improved. But I always wonder if you get to a point where you dont see what is really going on, so to speak.

I havent read all of the discussions where the podium for Dance is rigged but I could see how it would be in the judges minset to hold them back. Lets hope not. Cause Tessa & Scott are great. I understand you're boycott feelings Winnipeg but I dont think I could do it..Im too addicted

LOL the proverbial cow needs to hurry up and come home

I think Patrick is really going to be on the move up the rankings in the next couple of years. I remember being really impressed with him @Jr Worlds and this year he has been outstanding. We need 3 spots though come on Patrick & Jeffrey

and come on Shawn lets get some of these issues fixed I need to see some more of your wonderful programs.

 

[Sackie]

I agree with backoutsideedge, Chuckm you do not like Canadian Skaters no matter what you say. Cause even when you try to put them down you have to make up your own facts without checking the real facts out.
In regards to D/D you keep saying they are not as strong Tech as the other top teams - well maybe you need to check the scores for the GPF. Cause even you will have to admit that D/D received the second highest TES marks in the FS even with a fall!
It's also funny that you put down Canadian skaters for being so slow and therefore can not keep up with other top skaters but at the same time you are more then willing to overlook slowness in any American skater like Zang!

 

[skatingfan04]

FYI, there was an article in today's Globe and Mail re an interview with Bryce. He was quoted as stating their goal is 2010 and if they finish 4-5th this year at Worlds, then they are 'on track' for peaking in 2010.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080108.wsptskate8/GSStory/GlobeSportsOther/home

Sorry, don't know how to get the actual link, but there is the address.

They are aware of their need to improve speed and difficulty and will be continuing to work on this in the time leading to 2010.

As a fan, I really like their skating style because I think they have a great connection or 'it' factor (sorry for the trite description but that's what came to mind). IMO, if their diffuclty gets higher (which was one concern I had expressed earlier as I do think it needs to be upped so to speak) then I think they are better artistically that the other 4 teams mentioned here. If not this year, then next unless an injury comes up.



WRT Dance.....................this is where my ire gets up. I have seen so much written in this and other threads that leads me to believe the dance competition will NOT be based on skating but rather the composition of the judging panel and age of teams - the old 'wait for your turn' typical ISU logic (or illogic) . :banging::banging::banging::scowl::scowl:

I think V and M are one of the best dance teams today and they should be on the podium if they skate well..................if there is commentary and discussion that the event is rigged, I guess I'll have to return to the days where I completely boycotted the event (except maybe the final group at Nationals in the FD only):disapp::disapp:Their age should have NOTHING to do with it. They have been together for years and years and their performance should be judged.

There, I'll stop the dance rampage and ranting now.

Ladies, no comment, I do not see a podium finish there from now til the proverbial cows come home (sadly).

Men is possible but not this year, maybe next with Chan or even Andreev depending on how he comes along?

Please, NO more inuries for this team. I agree that there is a lot of room to improve, but they're still fairly young, only on their third season an the senior circuit. Yes, they've been skating together 5 yrs, but at least foru of those years have had numerous injuries for Jess. It's nice to see them become world class now that they've had a full season of non interrupted training. I don't think they'll medal in Sweden, but watch out for them in the next two years.

Sadly, I have to agree with you in terms of the ladies event. Other than Rochette, were pretty much out of the running at every level.

In terms of men, I live Jeff's skating, but if he's ever going to medal again at worlds it'll have to be soon. As for Chan, I think he may be a brekout star for Canada. Not this year, but soon. This kid's got it all, and he's only 17.

In dance, I'll admit that I'm puzzled by V/M and their scores at the GPF. I really hate to blame judging, since I'm a big fan of the new system despite It's flaws. I just don't see why they're not scoring higher artistically. I'lla admit, I'm biased. I've been following their career for years, and I think they're amazing. Are they not mature enough, because chemistry and expressing meaning in the musci isn't a problem for them in my eyes. And in terms of speed, I've seen them live. Truset me, they'rte fast. I don't think they'll medal this year, based on the GPF scores, but watch out for them too. They'll be on top one day. Again, JMO. No offence ment to anyone here.

 

[chuckm]

It's also funny that you put down Canadian skaters for being so slow and therefore can not keep up with other top skaters but at the same time you are more then willing to overlook slowness in any American skater like Zang!

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Caroline Zhang is 14 and this is her first year up from Juniors. I have never commented on her speed, but I have mentioned that her ice coverage at the GPF was well below that of her competitors. Because of her age I have been very reluctant to comment on her future--other than the expectation that she will go to JW and defend her title--since puberty has derailed many a future star.

D/D are 20 and 22 and haven't skated as Juniors since they finished 2nd at WJ 2005, almost 3 years ago. They aren't anywhere near as slow as K/S, but they are slower than S/S, Z/Z and P/T, and those are the teams they have to match or beat to be on the podium. I feel a little sorry for them because they have had so many injuries recently, and since the breakup of Marcoux/Buntin, D/D have had to carry the weight of all the Canadian fans' expectations on their shoulders. That makes for even more stress.

Other than D/D, I can't remember ever criticizing other top Canadian skaters for being slow. Sackie, you're tarring me with a very broad brush, and that isn't cricket.