Arms over the head | Golden Skate

Arms over the head

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?
This is the Rippon jump technique. Sadly, I don't think girls in certain skating schools jump any other way. It's annoying and should be limited.
 

gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?
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Joined
Mar 28, 2014
I've actually heard from skaters at my rink that it's easier to jump this way because it pulls them up higher to get their rotations in.

It's mostly annoying now but I have to say I'm used to it. I remember during the Medvedeva days it was infuriating because they weren't good Tanos. Zagitova definitely had the best ones and the current crop have ugly ones that don't add anything to the jump. I wouldn't mind if it were banned.
 

dorispulaski

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Jul 26, 2003
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Yes, the center of gravity is raised, but if the skater can go up straight in the air, so the axis of jump rotation goes through the center of gravity, perpendicular to the plane of the ice, that does not matter.

So If the skater can do a jump that way at all, you will note that rotational moment of inertia is less, so it is easier to rotate the jump.

Chris Howarth was commenting on the men's competition and was saying at this point, it is just a matter of how you learned your jumps.

I do not think it should get points as a feature.

In another year's rules, I think it would be nice to have arm position on jumps be varied.
 

jenaj

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Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
It was supposed to be a highlight, as noted. Seeing it with every jump make its an annoyance. What feature does it count for? Difficult entry? That seems like a stretch. If it is going to be rewarded, it should be done explicitly. And limited. Or not awarded points at all.
 

yume

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Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I think judges don't value it anymore. Medvedeva was getting +2s and +3s thanks to it because it was new and she was the only one to do it (all the others who were doing it were in juniors, her luck). Aside the tano + the difficult exits of most of her jumps, there wasn't anything special. Sotskova started to do the same thing but she never matched Medvedeva's TES. That's why when Samodurova came with the same thing, she was mostly getting +1s to +2s (except at euros). Tanos were not making up for her tiny jumps.
All EX-russians (Kurakova, Shabotova, Safanova, Ryabova) do rippons on all jumps but almost always get low TES.
It only works for those who have big fed support.

That said, i would like to see skaters jump with hands on the hips. I think i only saw Nancy Kerrigan do it on a 2lz.
 

Rudel-chw

On the Ice
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Oct 6, 2021
Country
Chile
I tought they jumped that way, particularly on the 4x jumps, because it was safer for the skater's spine whan they land the jump, as it keeps it straighter. :unsure:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yes, the center of gravity is raised, but if the skater can go up straight in the air, so the axis of jump rotation goes through the center of gravity, perpendicular to the plane of the ice, that does not matter.

So If the skater can do a jump that way at all, you will note that rotational moment of inertia is less, so it is easier to rotate the jump.
This makes sense. Maybe it is not a coincidence that quads and raised arms work well together from a mechanical persdpective.
 

lesnar001

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Does anybody still do "Tano" jumps with one arm overhead? All I have noticed recently are the "Rippon" jumps. I think maybe Liza T?

I remember that Alina Zagitova's jumps used both positions, as well as the conventional style with no arms raised. Rarely, if at all, did she extend her arms on her combination jumps (maybe just in practice).

Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter. Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?
 

4everchan

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Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
easy : do like for the spins. I believe that there is one variation that can only be used once (jump???) I may be mistaken about this though.. but if that's the case, then, people can do whatever they want but only the first time a jump uses the arm variation it can count as a feature... i wouldn't care if a tano counted as one and a rippon as another... but at least, that way, nobody could just nail that feature for every single element..

PS : i love Jo's rippon lutz ;)
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Does anybody still do "Tano" jumps with one arm overhead? All I have noticed recently are the "Rippon" jumps. I think maybe Liza T?

The only skater I can think of that 'recently' did the one-arm overhead is Maria Sotskova (and I didn't remember her tanos for a good reason)

Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter. Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?

I thought it was removed as well, I don't have the ambition to go Google it right now to confirm though. But GOE is honestly 90% reputation and 10% what's put on the ice IMO.
 

Bentley

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Aug 12, 2014
Country
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Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter.

Yes -- with a groan. I'd rather never see another Biellman.

Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?

Someone (must have been Ted, because it was in English) said recently while Kamila was skating that she learned the jumps when the both arms variation was being rewarded, but Kamila still does them that way because it's a lot of effort to re-learn without. So I think your statement is right, the "adds to GOE" has been removed.

I still think the Rippon variation looks great. But I hate the 'tano the way some of the Russian girls did/do them, sort of waving around or flopping. I think Liza T still does them, but sparingly, but honestly I don't like hers either.
 

jenaj

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Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes -- with a groan. I'd rather never see another Biellman.



Someone (must have been Ted, because it was in English) said recently while Kamila was skating that she learned the jumps when the both arms variation was being rewarded, but Kamila still does them that way because it's a lot of effort to re-learn without. So I think your statement is right, the "adds to GOE" has been removed.

I still think the Rippon variation looks great. But I hate the 'tano the way some of the Russian girls did/do them, sort of waving around or flopping. I think Liza T still does them, but sparingly, but honestly I don't like hers either.
Someone needs to tell Tara and Johnny, because they are always remarking on someone jumping with the arms aloft and, if I recall correctly, saying it adds to the GOE.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i prefer Rippon arms to Tano arms, mainly because the Rippons are more extended and visually pleasing than many helicopter Tanos that are not extended and their forearm is basically resting on top of their head. it's so ugly and IMO should not get full credit for a Tano feature. sorry Medvedeva, Sotskova, Tuktamysheva.
 
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