CoP opinions: The short program

[Mathman]

^ Well, I like all of your suggestions.

It's just that...everyone who has an opinion about how to improve the New Judging System says, make it more like the old judging system. We could have kept the old judging system all along and saved ourselves the grief.

 

[demarinis5]

^ Well, I like all of your suggestions.

It's just that...everyone who has an opinion about how to improve the New Judging System says, make it more like the old judging system. We could have kept the old judging system all along and saved ourselves the grief.

I agree. What is that old saying "If it ain't broken don't fix it". After SLC 6.0 was deemed "broken". So they fixed it with COP. Now after 4 years with COP I feel that the 6.0 system was not that bad and it sure was not "broken" enough to be replaced with a judging system that is different but not better than 6.0. JMO

 

[enlight78]

^ The 6.0 system was completely broken. The judges could just pick their favorites to win. The only obvious wins for a skater in 6.0 was if the skater was perfect.Other than that judges was pulling marks from thin are
With COP I actually know how skaters can win and loose a compitition. I now have a rule system that is legitamen tand concrete enough(could be better) to support my agreements of disagreements with the judges. With 6.0 it was Opinions mostly. I don't like PCs because it is exactly like the old 6.0 system except it has a 10.0 scale. I like the fact that a skater has to skate two programs to win a competition. It shows consistancy. It also cuts down the pressure on a skaters.Maybe there should be two three minute programs instead of a short and a long. Maybe the short can count more. Or any other idea, but there should definitly be two programs.

 

[bekalc]

Joe[/QUOTE]

Excellent GoldMedalist. I see no point in the SP other than to entertain the fans who need figure skating every minute of life.

The results of the Men's at 2007 Worlds. Should be Daisuke, Lambiel, Verner. But Joubert won it on the strength of his SP lead. I didn't buy it (and with all due respect for Brian).

Joe

Did you see the short programs? Joubert and Buttle were the only men who skated somewhat decently...

Dai, was lucky to have a third place in the short program, when he had a shaky landing on his combo and got his combo downgraded to a 3/2.

Basically Joubert did a 4/3 and Dai did a 3/2.

Lambiel fell on his triple axel and only did a triple toe/triple toe in his short program. He was deservedly way behind.

Tomas Verner did a lovely 3/3, but then popped his triple axel.

Joubert's only mistake was a hand down on a triple flip but that's what -1 GOE?

Basically the other "more" deserving men in the short program made some major, major mistakes. And Joubert quite deserved the huge lead he got in the short program based on the mistakes they made. It would be like if in a football team, one team scores 6 touchdowns in the first quarter and first 3 minutes of the second quarter. Let's see the other team rallies throughout the rest of the game and gets 5 touchdowns and a field goal. Would you really say that it's unfair that the first team won, even though they were outplayed for the rest of the game. NO. Because the team that rallied, dug their own hole in the first quarter, and quite deserved their lose.

Well the same goes with Joubert winning the world championships, and Miki winning the world championship. Joubert and Miki may not be everyone's favorites, but they were consistent through both phases of the competition, and their competitors were not.

Quite frankly if Daisuke hadn't put a hand down on one of his jumps, he would have beaten Joubert after all. And if Mao hadn't two footed her triple axel/or hadn't underrotated her triple toe, she would have won. It's not like it was "impossible for them to come back" It could have happened, but both Dai and Mao had to be perfect, and as great as their long programs were, they weren't perfect.

I like the idea of a short program because the short program encourages consistency, it ensures that the person who skates the best through both phases of the competition wins. In the old system it forced the judges to pick 3 skaters, but what if five skaters skated extremely, extremely well in the short program? Shouldn't all five skaters have a shot at winning the gold. Doesn't that make things more exciting. Under this system, all five skaters have a shot.

However, what if only one/two people skate well in the short program? And everyone skates poorly. Why should a third person be given the same opportunity to win, when the third person skated poorly?

I think what's great about having two programs is that it makes it less likely for the judges to just go with their favorite.

 

[Medusa]

Personally I like the idea that it doesn't just limit three, and give all three almost equal chance of winning the gold medal. What if you have a circumstance where 5 people skate extremely well, shouldn't all five then deserve a shot at the gold medal? COP ensures that all five get a shot at the gold, and I think this makes the competition more exciting.

Great post, really great post! It is one of the greatest benefits of COP that you have the chance to move up. It didn't really matter in the Yagudin/Plushenko time, but e.g. these days there are lots of amazing skaters out there who are pretty equal. Take Lysacek - 2006 he was 8th after the short, skated the lights out in the free and won the bronze (granted, all the others behind him skated pretty bad). But if you mess up your short completely, you have a hard time medalling (at least in theory, some people get presents if they mess up big time, e.g. Asada and Lambiel this season).

P.S: Takahashi was in third after the short, Buttle in second.

 

[ToePick]

I agree that belac's post was excellent!

That is not to say that I think the CoP is perfect -- it clearly needs work. The problem is that there will never be a "perfect" system. I just hope that the ISU actually wakes up and actually works to correct it. Long shot, I know, but hope springs eternal, right?!?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Did you see the short programs? Joubert and Buttle were the only men who skated somewhat decently...

Dai, was lucky to have a third place in the short program, when he had a shaky landing on his combo and got his combo downgraded to a 3/2.

Basically Joubert did a 4/3 and Dai did a 3/2.

Lambiel fell on his triple axel and only did a triple toe/triple toe in his short program. He was deservedly way behind.

Tomas Verner did a lovely 3/3, but then popped his triple axel.

Joubert's only mistake was a hand down on a triple flip but that's what -1 GOE?

opportunity to win, when the third person skated poorly?

I think what's great about having two programs is that it makes it less likely for the judges to just go with their favorite.

Yes, I did see all that, and thanks for bringing it up. I am of the opinion, that the best skate that night should be the winner.

first of all: I do not believe there is room for collusion and maybe a judge may place a countryman before others but it will be only one judge per panel and only if there is a close range between competitors.

Now, figure skating is not split up into different groups of elements as is the Gymnastics where there are 4 separate contests going on. Figure Skating to me, seems to run on the 'old' system of gathering up the points for best 'Whole Package' The CoP is actually designed for that WP (or tries to be). Unfortunately, imo, Figure Skating comes in two very similar parts (SP and LP).

To watch on the night of nights the big test of the Long Program and watch Daisuke who without question was the best that night, have to bow to another skater who happened to be better in a much less contest on a previous night. That same skater who won the Championship would not even have been on the podium.

becalc. I do know the rules and for that Joubert wins on a 4th place LP. It's just that I don't think he was the best of the best that all important night, and there were more than just Daisuke.

While many posters think the CoP should be improved upon (as I do), I stick my neck out and ask "Does the SP show something that the LP does not?"

Joe

 

[gkelly]

Well, another option, under either judging system, could be for singles skaters to have a jump competition, a spin competition, and a skating skills (steps, spirals, etc., and music interpretation) competition, give separate medals for each of those areas, and then have the top X skaters with the highest combined scores move on to the freeskating final.

Logistically it would be a nightmare especially at huge competitions like Jr. Worlds and Worlds. But it would be nice for the skaters who are not as well rounded to be rewarded for what they might do exceptionally well, while assuring that the major titles do go to well-rounded skaters (and not just the best jumpers as has often been the case).

 

[bekalc]

Yes, I did see all that, and thanks for bringing it up. I am of the opinion, that the best skate that night should be the winner.

first of all: I do not believe there is room for collusion and maybe a judge may place a countryman before others but it will be only one judge per panel and only if there is a close range between competitors.

Now, figure skating is not split up into different groups of elements as is the Gymnastics where there are 4 separate contests going on. Figure Skating to me, seems to run on the 'old' system of gathering up the points for best 'Whole Package' The CoP is actually designed for that WP (or tries to be). Unfortunately, imo, Figure Skating comes in two very similar parts (SP and LP).

To watch on the night of nights the big test of the Long Program and watch Daisuke who without question was the best that night, have to bow to another skater who happened to be better in a much less contest on a previous night. That same skater who won the Championship would not even have been on the podium.

becalc. I do know the rules and for that Joubert wins on a 4th place LP. It's just that I don't think he was the best of the best that all important night, and there were more than just Daisuke.

While many posters think the CoP should be improved upon (as I do), I stick my neck out and ask "Does the SP show something that the LP does not?"

Joe

The short program and the long program together show Consistency...Let me ask you this, whose to say that Daisuke, Verner, and Lambiel would have skated as well as they did, if they had an even shot against Joubert in the long? What I"m going to suggest is that by being so behind Joubert, it more than likely took some of the pressure off all three men.

Joubert's issue wasn't so much pressure as it was he was dealing with an injury.. He probably would have done more though if he hadn't had such a huge lead.

Lambiel was struggling all season and back then and even now neither Verner or Daisuke are known for their consistency.

I think doing well in both programs shows who can handle their nerves the best. I don't support the idea of getting rid of the short program, I think it would be bad for the sport.

And no, I don't think Joubert winning was bad for the sport, any more than the Packers winning because they had 3 touchdowns in the first quarter, vs a team that had 2 touchdowns and a field goal in the rest of the game, is unfair.

It's not to much to ask that the world champion skate somewhat decently in 2 programs.

The long program is worth A LOT more than the short program...But the short program is part of the competition "it's not a lesser contest" It's part of the SAME contest.
I think seeing two programs, gives the judges a lot better idea of whose the best at this time, then just having "one program."

And I don't think the judges really wanted to crown Joubert over Daisuke. The judges adore Daisuke. But he didn't bring it in the short program.

 

[Mathman]

Let me ask you this, who's to say that Daisuke, Verner, and Lambiel would have skated as well as they did, if they had an even shot against Joubert in the long?

I think the point of Joe's suggestion is: no one knows, and that's exactly what the (single) long program would have determined.

I also look at sport contests from the point of view of the audience. Basically, Joe is suggesting the cheesefest format. Everyone skates his skate, do or die, winner take all. If you have a bad day, too bad -- that's sport.

The New England Patriots had a bad day in the Super Bowl; they didn't get to count all the points they scored in their 17 games leading up to it. That's what sports is all about. Skate for the gold! Right here! Right now! Bring it or go home!

Better television, too. We don't want to return to the days of figures where you turn on the TV and the announcer says, well, this was decided two days ago, now we'll just go through the motions of having a championship skate.

Edited to add: PS. I, however, would rather keep the short program and Chack the long. Here's what's wrong with the long program -- it's too long. The short program is just right, with respect to viewers' attention spans.

 

[bekalc]

I think the point of Joe's suggestion is: no one knows, and that's exactly what the (single) long program would have determined.

I also look at sport contests from the point of view of the audience. Basically, Joe is suggesting the cheesefest format. Everyone skates his skate, do or die, winner take all. If you have a bad day, too bad -- that's sport.

The New England Patriots had a bad day in the Super Bowl; they didn't get to count all the points they scored in their 17 games leading up to it. That's what sports is all about. Skate for the gold! Right here! Right now! Bring it or go home!

Better television, too. We don't want to return to the days of figures where you turn on the TV and the announcer says, well, this was decided two days ago, now we'll just go through the motions of having a championship skate.

Edited to add: PS. I, however, would rather keep the short program and Chack the long. Here's what's wrong with the long program -- it's too long. The short program is just right, with respect to viewers' attention spans.

That's not a fair analogy the because no one is saying that Joubert deserved his win because he won the Grand Prix Final. In football and in most sports there is a half time break in figure skating though the half time break is a day or two.

Now maybe Joe would like it better if the short program was done, and then the top 10 advanced to the long program, to be skated that day. One day that's it. Although you would have to pity the poor judges in that scenario.

But perhaps then, everyone would remember the fact that so and so fell twice in the short program. I amazed when I still here people talk about how Evan was screwed out of a medal in the Olympics inspite of the fact that Evan's short was extremely dismal.

 

[Mathman]

...in figure skating though the half time break is a day or two.

And you don't see anything bizarre about that?

Oh well, it gives the audience a chance to stretch their legs, maybe get some popcorn.

 

[bekalc]

And you don't see anything bizarre about that?

Oh well, it gives the audience a chance to stretch their legs, maybe get some popcorn.

I do think it's a bit bizare, and I think it's unnecessary in let say the GP events. However, I do think it would be kind of difficult for judges at Worlds to judge 45 some people in the short, and then turn around and judge long programs in the same day...It's not like in football game where two teams play against each other.

It would be possible I think in the Olympics, but I don't see the TPTB going for it because they would lose money. But I actually think it would make the competition more exciting... LOL!

 

[GoldMedalist]

Did you see the short programs? Joubert and Buttle were the only men who skated somewhat decently...

Dai, was lucky to have a third place in the short program, when he had a shaky landing on his combo and got his combo downgraded to a 3/2.

Takahashi had the best SP in terms of presentation at 2007 Worlds. He skated more than decently.

And the whole downgrade thing is dumb, as we all know.

Underrotating a Triple and getting less credit for it than a double is just plain wrong. That, along with Joubert being overmarked since he was "the favored one", are why Takahashi did not win the title.

This year, though, Takahashi will win.

THAT right there is one of the biggest problems with the judging in this sport...skaters NEED to have this sense of entitlement surrounding them before judges will take them seriously. And, once they have that, they often get held up when their performances aren't great.

 

[bekalc]

Takahashi had the best SP in terms of presentation at 2007 Worlds. He skated more than decently.

And the whole downgrade thing is dumb, as we all know.

Underrotating a Triple and getting less credit for it than a double is just plain wrong. That, along with Joubert being overmarked since he was "the favored one", are why Takahashi did not win the title.

This year, though, Takahashi will win.

THAT right there is one of the biggest problems with the judging in this sport...skaters NEED to have this sense of entitlement surrounding them before judges will take them seriously. And, once they have that, they often get held up when their performances aren't great.

The whole downgrading thing is not dumb. As far as I'm concerned downgrading your jump is a major error.

Basically only doing a 3/2, when your biggest competitor did a gorgeous 4/3 IS a major difference and deserves to be regulated in the score. Besides it's not like his jump landing was just short, but cleanly landed, he had some problems with the landing itself.

In the women's competition only a 3/2 wouldn't be that big of a deal, but in the men's competition it is a big deal to only do a 3/2 in the short, and Dai himself said his short program was not good.

And for the record, I like Dai better than I like Joubert, but fair is fair and Joubert deserved the big lead he got over Dai in the short program.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Basically only doing a 3/2

A downgraded Triple isn't a double.

The combination jump was the ONLY thing Joubert had over Takahashi in the SP. Takahashi's solo jump was better, his Axel was better, and his musical interpretation was stronger. Joubert didn't deserve a massive lead.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Becalc - I learned some time ago never to discuss a disagreement with an ardent fan of a particular skater. As I said before according to the rules of figure skating Joubert won. But in my own tastes, Daisuke won, Lambiel was 2nd (my favorite, btw) and Verner in a suprising third. And in my own way, I will never think of Joubert winning that Worlds except by the rules of the game and not by his skating prowess.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

A downgraded Triple isn't a double.

The combination jump was the ONLY thing Joubert had over Takahashi in the SP. Takahashi's solo jump was better, his Axel was better, and his musical interpretation was stronger. Joubert didn't deserve a massive lead.

Wrong. Both Joubert and Daisuke have fabulous Triple axels, and they judges scored them equally on GOE. Joubert also had 3 level four spins, whereas Takahashi had one level four spin..

Joubert got 13.86 points for his 4/3, whereas Takahashi got 5.23 points for his downgraded 3/3, and that's quite fair because I'm sorry but it was a big mistake.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Wrong. Both Joubert and Daisuke have fabulous Triple axels

Joubert's 3Axel is his worst jump. Takahashi's is better on height alone.

and they judges scored them equally on GOE.

Of course, because they're bad. Joubert was the "due" person last year.

Joubert got 13.86 points for his 4/3, whereas Takahashi got 5.23 points for his downgraded 3/3, and that's quite fair because I'm sorry but it was a big mistake.

5.23 points means his 3/3 was worth less than if he had either (A.) omitted the 3Toe, or (B.) outright fallen on it.

So, no, it's not fair. CoP has problems and I don't think you see the situation as it really is.

 

[bekalc]

Joubert's 3Axel is his worst jump. Takahashi's is better on height alone.



Of course, because they're bad. Joubert was the "due" person last year.



5.23 points means his 3/3 was worth less than if he had either (A.) omitted the 3Toe, or (B.) outright fallen on it.

So, no, it's not fair. CoP has problems and I don't think you see the situation as it really is.

Well, okay let's throw you a bone and say they shouldn't take off GOE in most cases, although even in that, since he had a bad landing you can argue that minus GOE is deserved... Even if they had just given him credit for a 3flip/2toe. Joubert still would have won overall...

And no offense -1.50 GOE is pretty generous for a downgraded jump with a bad landing. Most skaters get far worse. So, I disagree with the idea that they were somewhere out to just hand it to Joubert. The other skaters did a great job of handing it to Joubert themselves.

And Joesitz. Verner not only had a popped triple axel in the short program, he also fell on his triple flip, in the long. I'm not getting why he was somewhat more deserving than Joubert. Lambiel also had a mutlitude of errors in both programs. Joubert was clearly not exciting but he was consistent and clean.