CoP opinions: The short program

[Tonichelle]

Larry - the points may not be added up over x number of games throughout a season - but neither are the points kept through all competitions in skating...

the points are not erased in a football game after halftime, they come back and continue to -hopefully - add points... same goes with skating... yes it's a couple days long, but they are showing 4 competitions at once in the same arena... you have to break for another disipline...

I like how it works with a short program and a long program. If you can't handle 4.5 minutes tops of following one program, then that's your loss

 

[bekalc]

Larry - the points may not be added up over x number of games throughout a season - but neither are the points kept through all competitions in skating...

the points are not erased in a football game after halftime, they come back and continue to -hopefully - add points... same goes with skating... yes it's a couple days long, but they are showing 4 competitions at once in the same arena... you have to break for another disipline...

I like how it works with a short program and a long program. If you can't handle 4.5 minutes tops of following one program, then that's your loss

Not only that, but for example the Swedish schedule has 10 hours scheduled for the ladies short program!!!! :

eek: I don't think you can ask the judges to also judge the long programs on the same day too. Having it over two days, is just having some pity on the poor judges.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Well, okay let's throw you a bone and say they shouldn't take off GOE in most cases, although even in that, since he had a bad landing you can argue that minus GOE is deserved... Even if they had just given him credit for a 3flip/2toe. Joubert still would have won overall...

And no offense -1.50 GOE is pretty generous for a downgraded jump with a bad landing. Most skaters get far worse.

As it has been said before, GOE should have nothing to do with underrotated jumps if any kind of logical thought is being followed. Nor should a downgrade be the same penalty as if the skater hadn't even gone for that extra rotation and played it safe. A 2.5 rotation jump isn't 2 rotations, why call it that?

As for the actual combo, he was tilted forward on the landing. Not a big mistake. Certainly no worse than Joubert putting his hand down.

The whole story doesn't have to do with just that jump, though. The PCS marks are what should be looked at and the fact that Joubert's uninspired LP scored very close to the same amount as Takahashi and Lambiel's moving performances for the ages is a problem.

LOL, I can't believe it's actually been a year since this happened already?!?!? Seems like 6 months ago.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

For all it's flaws, the old system was definitly better than the new one. The CoP is killing figure skating, something that the old system didn't do at least. However if we were to go back to the old system, some changes would have to made.
The system I would like to see put in place would be:
1) skaters given a grade out of maybe 100 for artistry and for technique (the problem with 6.0 is that it doesn't allow small differences between grades) .
That way judges give a global appreciation of the performance, not an appreciation for a set of elements.
2) The result would be an average score and not an average position (that way the difference between skaters matters too, not just the position)
3) The scores from the SP and the LP would hence be added, like for the CoP
4) Obviously the LP would count more than the SP. Let's say the LP would count twice.
5) At the end of each competition, judges will have to publish a report justifying the grades they gave.
6) Just like the old days, judges would be revealed with their nationality.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The topic was about the CoP short programs. I just gave a very good example (2007 Worlds Mens Division) of how unnecessary the SP is. Few people will agree with me because they want to see as much skating as possible. I want a definitive champion in one night of competition. Unfortunately, my example brought about a discussion of whether the winner of that worlds championship was correct when his LP skating would not have brought him to the podium.

It was not meant to be a discussion about the example, but only to show how, imo, insignificant the SP is in selecting a winner.

Joubert is a fine skater as are the others mentioned and what happened to Joubert could have also happened to any of the others. It boils down to the best that night.

BOT. Should we do away with the Short Program? Does it tell us anything about a skater's abilities which are not apparent in the LP?

Joe

 

[skatergirl45]

To answer your question Joe, Should we do away with the short program. Well, it would make the results at some sompetitions MUCH different. For example, US senior ladies nationals 2008
1.Mirai Nagasu (racael flatt placed here in the freeskate)
2.Rachael Flatt(Ashley Wagner)
3. Ashley Wagner(Mirai Nagasu)
4.Caroline Zhang(caroline zhang)
5. Bebe Liang(bebe liang)
6. Katrina Hacker(katrina hacker)
7. kimmie meissner(kimmie meissner)

So, that being stated, the long program results were pretty similar to the overall results. Therefore, I think that the short program could be erased.

The short does not help to show skaters abilities in any way that is not apparent in the long program. At least in the long, skaters SOMETIMES have time in the choreography to include a signature move (spread eagle ect.)

I beleive that this has been stated before that the long program has SO many requirements now it is almost like a longer short program.

What I propose is to keep the long maybe add some more requirments and do away with the short. Instead of a short, maybe do a jump/spin contest???? I don't know about that but...........

Or another idea that just popped into my head. What if skating became more like gymnastics with a team standings and maybe special jump/spin/spiral/footwork competitions. I doubt it would work but hey, you never know. lol

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So, that being stated, the long program results were pretty similar to the overall results. Therefore, I think that the short program could be erased.

Thank you skatergirl. Nice to read someone agrees with me, but I do understand that fans want as much skating to watch as possible so an SP gives them that but it does not give them, imo, anything in the way of a champion.

I beleive that this has been stated before that the long program has SO many requirements now it is almost like a longer short program.

he, he. How true.

What I propose is to keep the long maybe add some more requirments and do away with the short. Instead of a short, maybe do a jump/spin contest???? I don't know about that but...........

Good suggestions, and I think gkelly also mentioned a breakdown of the various
parts of figure skating into mini separate competitions.. They would not have to be all in one day. Each part on a different day, e.g., Monday: footwork; Tuesday: spins; Wednesday: skating skills;; Thursday: Jumps leading up to the big one the Long Program incorporating all the parts with music and choreography, (Men and Pairs on Saturday; Ladies and Dance on Sunday. Think of the money that could be rolling in!

A lot of logistics to work on here and I think that will keep it from happening in our time. :scratch:

Joe

 

[sillylionlove]

Since all the short program tend to look alike they could get rid of it.

However, all the long program look alike because all the skaters have to do the same elements and if you get rid of the short program then all the long programs will be exactly the same.

How about the long program being a more artistic program and the short program being a more technical program?

How about going back to figures and having everyone skate outdoors?

AHHH...who knows......I don't think this situation will ever be solved.

 

[kittyjake5]

How about going back to figures and having everyone skate outdoors?

Good one!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Since all the short program tend to look alike they could get rid of it.

However, all the long program look alike because all the skaters have to do the same elements and if you get rid of the short program then all the long programs will be exactly the same.

How about the long program being a more artistic program and the short program being a more technical program?

How about going back to figures and having everyone skate outdoors?

AHHH...who knows......I don't think this situation will ever be solved.

I think that that was the original intent of the SP at one time, but even in the SP contest, 9 out of 10 times the Presentation would win over the Technical. The SP had good intentions but it just didn't materialize for what the purpose was and today as skater girl above said. The LP has so many requirements that it has taken over the SP.

Artistic for an SP would be good, if and only if, all the contestants had to skate to the same music be it DV or vynal. no matter, the same music. That would tell us a lot about presentation or PCS, if you will.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

Thank you skatergirl. Nice to read someone agrees with me, but I do understand that fans want as much skating to watch as possible so an SP gives them that but it does not give them, imo, anything in the way of a champion.

I disagree with that completely... If you have just a long program, it's a lot easier for the judges to just crown their favorite.

A good example is the ladies competition last year.

Ando landed a the hardest 3/3 combination in the short program (In the competition) she went out and landed a clean 7 triple performance. I found her a bit boring but she did all these things.

Mao Asada, messed up her 3/3 in the short, and in the long program Mao wasn't clean either. She had a downgraded triple toe, and she two footed her triple axel. She had 5 clean triplse to Miki's 7 clean triples. But the judges still gave the long program to Mao, because Mao is the judges favorite.. But it's hard to say that in that particular competition that Miki honestly and truly DIDN"T out skate Mao. Now, don't get me wrong I did find Miki's program boring but still.

In the short program and the long program does encourage consistency throughout both phases of the competition. And having both together, makes it less harder for collusion with the judges, because there are more opportunities for skaters to make mistakes.

There is also a do or die aspect to the short program that does not exist in the long. In the long if you let's say double foot your jump in your triple lutz, you can add in another combination to your next triple lutz. In the short program there is no opportunity to fix mistakes, and that's what makes the short program interesting. There is a reason why some skaters have issues with the short program.

I don't know how you can say that the short program "doesn't show anything" when we have so many skaters who currently have issues with the short program.

As for Joubert, what happened to him was his own choice. Joubert was dealing with an injury and he was worried about his ability to go clean, so he watered down his program. He's capable of more, but since he had his lead he didn't risk it. I also think that Joubert didn't espect Dai to skate as well as he did, because Dai wasn't exactly known for clean well down long programs at that point in time. (I realize people love him but still).

 

[GoldMedalist]

As for Joubert, what happened to him was his own choice. Joubert was dealing with an injury and he was worried about his ability to go clean, so he watered down his program. He's capable of more, but since he had his lead he didn't risk it. I also think that Joubert didn't espect Dai to skate as well as he did, because Dai wasn't exactly known for clean well down long programs at that point in time. (I realize people love him but still).

Dai had the top-scoring LP of 2007 before Worlds. It's Joubert's own folly to have watered down his program like he did (the 3Toe-3Toe combo he did was gorgeous but, still, it needed to be a 4Toe-3Toe). His only big strength, in comparison to the other top competitors, is the jumps. If he isn't the best in that area, then he doesn't deserve to win.

 

[bekalc]

Dai had the top-scoring LP of 2007 before Worlds. It's Joubert's own folly to have watered down his program like he did (the 3Toe-3Toe combo he did was gorgeous but, still, it needed to be a 4Toe-3Toe). His only big strength, in comparison to the other top competitors, is the jumps. If he isn't the best in that area, then he doesn't deserve to win.

It didn't need to be a 4toe/3toe because Joubert won without it. But as mentioned earlier, Joubert was recovering from a broken toe, this injury was reported before worlds started. He was extremely concerned about how that injury would hold up in the long program. So, he choose to water down his program and skate clean. Joubert had a big lead, he didn't need two triple axels and 3 quads to win, so he choose to skate clean. You may disagree with his decision, but based on the circumstances Joubert was in.
1. He had a Huge lead.
2. He had an injury he was concerned about.

It wasn't a ridiculous choice to go for the safe program. I'm sure it wasn't the way Joubert "wanted to win" his first world title, but he took it by being smart and consistent.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Good suggestions, and I think gkelly also mentioned a breakdown of the various
parts of figure skating into mini separate competitions.. They would not have to be all in one day. Each part on a different day, e.g., Monday: footwork; Tuesday: spins; Wednesday: skating skills;; Thursday: Jumps leading up to the big one the Long Program incorporating all the parts with music and choreography, (Men and Pairs on Saturday; Ladies and Dance on Sunday. Think of the money that could be rolling in!


Joe

yay Joe!! i that idea!

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I personnaly would keep the SP for two reasons:
1) It makes sure skaters have basic skills
2)It allows skaters, artisticly, to do stuff they can't in the LP because of the length. Some of the SPs are real treasures.

If the SP didn't exist, neither would Alexei Yagudin's "Winter"..................

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I personnaly would keep the SP for two reasons:
1) It makes sure skaters have basic skills
2)It allows skaters, artisticly, to do stuff they can't in the LP because of the length. Some of the SPs are real treasures.

If the SP didn't exist, neither would Alexei Yagudin's "Winter"..................

Does not the LP show basic skills?

Does the SP show stamina?

Should exhibition programs be judged?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If the purpose of the SP is to make the Technical special, then let's have one score for the Technical. Why bring up the PCS if it's not the purpose?

But maybe, the purpose of the SP is now very moot.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

If the purpose of the SP is to make the Technical special, then let's have one score for the Technical. Why bring up the PCS if it's not the purpose?

But maybe, the purpose of the SP is now very moot.

Joe

PCS now do judge a lot of technical aspects like skating skills...Besides artistry was always rewarded in the technical program.

 

[Mathman]

The good thing about having two programs is that we get to see how the athletes handle two different musical moods.

Maybe the short is upbeat and the long is dramatic, maybe the short is lyrical and the long is down and dirty. What is really neat is when the two programs fit together, like a concert in which two contrasting yet complementary pieces are selected. Lori Nichol especially likes to do that, selecting the music for the short program and the long together. Mao Asada's two programs last year were a good example.

In ice dancing we might see a couple do a waltz in the CD, then a jazz OD and a tango for the finale. It gives us more to go on in judging their overall skills.

 

[bekalc]

The good thing about having two programs is that we get to see how the athletes handle two different musical moods.

Maybe the short is upbeat and the long is dramatic, maybe the short is lyrical and the long is down and dirty. What is really neat is when the two programs fit together, like a concert in which two contrasting yet complementary pieces are selected. Lori Nichol especially likes to do that, selecting the music for the short program and the long together. Mao Asada's two programs last year were a good example.

In ice dancing we might see a couple do a waltz in the CD, then a jazz OD and a tango for the finale. It gives us more to go on in judging their overall skills.

I think you hit the nail on the head, when you talk about how more than one program gives the judges an opportunity more to base their final decision on.

I also like the do or die aspect of the short program and with short programs we get to see masterpieces that we might not get to see in a long...