What do Tanith & Ben need to do now?

[gio]

Perhaps it is a cultural difference between you and I - I say this only because you are posted from Italy which leads me to believe you're Italian and not American. Both are fine countries.

Maybe is this. But I was in the USA and I stayed there for a month the first time and for two months the second time, and I have a lot of American friends. Trust me that some things said by them made me blush . So, I think it really depends on the persons. Paris Hilton and Britney Spears are not nuns after all.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think blaming everything on Tanith is a bit unfair, and thinking that Ben should leave the partnership is a little harsh. They definitely have something together that works, and I think they're fantastic. They didn't end the season on a high note, but crap happens to the best of us.

As for their OD - it's not their fault that international judges didn't like their first OD and they had to go back and change it and make it the stereotype it became. I don't fault them at all.

 

[ManyCairns]

As for their OD - it's not their fault that international judges didn't like their first OD and they had to go back and change it and make it the stereotype it became. I don't fault them at all.

Very true. They tried choreo that had as much of an authentic flavor and moves as they could -- remember Doris Pulaski's wonderful thread discussing this? And the judges didn't "get" it, so they had to go with something stereotypic -- which could well be the source of the "Wal-mart" flavor, as it was described, that it ended up with. I really do give them kudos for not only NOT doing another Russian/Gypsy number, but with trying N. American music, while knowing that it doesn't usually go over well. It was at least a bold attempt, even if it misfired.

I just hope they continue to truly love ice dance, and continue to compete. I hope it comes sooner for them, but like Del/Schoe, I believe if they stay with it they will sometime earn at least one World gold. I sure hope so! They've said they'll retire after 2010, I realize, but I wouldn't mind if they stayed longer. I love Meryl and Charlie, too, but I'm far from thinking Tanith and Ben's days are over. Again, as long as they are enjoying what they're doing.

 

[sfgirl]

I am wondering what is the intangible factor of connection between a couple? Do couples just have it, or is it something that can be acquired. I don't feel it with Ben and Tanith. Davis and White are my favorites, but I don't feel the connection between them as strongly as I do between Virtue and Moir. Torvill and Dean were married to other people in some of their professional competitions but the connection between them never faltered. Something that I find fascinating.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think that they were for sure moving in the right direction this year, but sadly, it all fell apart. I they need a passionate, dramatic freedance, I have a wonderful idea of them skating to ave maira, in tattered clothes... theme...after witnessing all the sorrows of the world, they use their last breaths to pray to god asking for peace.
They need to continue working on their basic skating skills, esp tanith and get some more speed. I hope the OD is better next year, folk dance was annoying most of the time.

 

[lmarie086]

I think that they were for sure moving in the right direction this year, but sadly, it all fell apart. I they need a passionate, dramatic freedance, I have a wonderful idea of them skating to ave maira, in tattered clothes... theme...after witnessing all the sorrows of the world, they use their last breaths to pray to god asking for peace.
They need to continue working on their basic skating skills, esp tanith and get some more speed. I hope the OD is better next year, folk dance was annoying most of the time.

Oh I could see that...as long as their expression (well, hers really) becomes more versatile. It would be lovely, but I'm almost wondering if they'd do well with something voidy.

And I believe that next years OD is themed the "Roaring 20's," which both B/A and D/W(I think they'll be amazing with this!) should do well with.

 

[Dodhiyel]

I am wondering what is the intangible factor of connection between a couple? Do couples just have it, or is it something that can be acquired. I don't feel it with Ben and Tanith. Davis and White are my favorites, but I don't feel the connection between them as strongly as I do between Virtue and Moir. Torvill and Dean were married to other people in some of their professional competitions but the connection between them never faltered. Something that I find fascinating.

This thread has so many good observations in it, that I really wanted to do multiple quotes (but I think I don't know how to do that in one post, except with " marks lol). I think that sfgirl's post is very to the point, so I chose that one. Thank you for saying it for me, sfgirl.

Basically, I think there are several problems that Tanith and Ben have. The two that particularly strike me, are the one sfgirl describes, and one other. The other one is trying to be too "cutesy" at times, as in their OD, which, although it brought back memories of Michael Kidd's choreography, was not on the same level for me. I think that overdone cuteness is a bad idea when ice dancing before international judges at the highest level of competition.

To sfgirl's observation, I'll try to add my own, as follows. I think it is not necessary to be lovers in order to have good chemistry on the ice, but it is necessary to have a relaxed relationship, in which both partners feel confident about one another, and feel that they know what to expect from one another at any given time, on the ice, in the kiss n' cry, etc. That generally takes time to develop, but some partners never develop it, that sense of being "simpatico". I agree that the other teams which sfgirl mentioned look as if they do have that kind of connection, and I think a good connection in an ice dance partnership is the "sine qua non", the without which, nothing.

 

[all that]

I am wondering what is the intangible factor of connection between a couple? Do couples just have it, or is it something that can be acquired. I don't feel it with Ben and Tanith. Davis and White are my favorites, but I don't feel the connection between them as strongly as I do between Virtue and Moir. Torvill and Dean were married to other people in some of their professional competitions but the connection between them never faltered. Something that I find fascinating.

Part of the "connection" you see can be acquired, because it has to do with the way the partners relate to each other on the ice. For example, you see a strong connection between V/M because Scott presents Tessa to the audience beautifully, and Tessa responds to him. With B/A, Ben does a good job of presenting Tanith, but instead of responding to him, Tanith often focuses on the audience. Her expressions are designed to convince the audience, rather than communicate an emotion to Ben. Thus, it looks more like a "performance," rather than the more intimate scenario V/M tend to create. With D/W, both Charlie and Meryl need to work on relating to each other more. There has been some definite improvement in the past year, so I expect that things will only be better next year.

 

[kyla2]

Hmmm.....

I have seen Tanith and Ben connect in the past so it isn't that they can't. I think the programs were lacking and because of that they weren't comfortable in them. Which really made them seem more disconnected. However, I do understand what people mean when they say Tanith sometimes lack depth of emotion during the skate. Ben is a first rate skater. But Tanith is not chopped liver herself. One last comment, the music choices need to be better.

 

[**Carol**]

First: I am Not an expert in Figure Skating

I love Tanith and Ben ...but what happened with them? they were realy good ultill 2006! :scratch: Recall tha Elvis and the Gypsi FDs!!!

I think they need to focus on the basic skating, and make coach and coreographer change.
They need chose a good interesting music
And...they nedd take ballet and modern dance classes, they nedd to dance more with each other off the ice.

This Chopin Fd was the best since 2006, i hope they focus on theyer job for the next season

 

[heyang]

Martini and Underhill had amazing chemistry both before and after their respective marriages. Unchained Melody was incredible.

 

[Tonichelle]

This Chopin Fd was the best since 2006, i hope they focus on theyer job for the next season

I think they focus on their job every season.They both seem very dedicated to their sport.

They've been experimenting with new looks, trying to get that more mature look that many used to say they were lacking (because of the elvis program among others), and they wanted new lifts...

I honestly don't get why they aren't allowed to have a bad season, or really just bad competition. I think they'll come back hungry next season and be just fine.

 

[MarieM]

The big problem they have, and had all along, is that they were always overscored because the russians didn't feel they were as dangerous as the bulgarians and the french.
Thus they might have got the impression they would soon be at the top thus they didn't fix what's bad in their skating.

First : the lack of raw power.They never were consistent with it and will never be due to their body type. But that's something they can work on, without going the excess Igor way of doing an element then crossovers to make the impression they have speed while they don't.

Second : no artistic evolution has happened with them since the olympic until this year. They always played it safe, to the kind of music anyone would kill to make it stop. At least this year they have taken a step in the right direction, they should NOT abandon that path.
Perky isn't the only way. The Shae Lynn complex has to go !

Third : the difference of level between the two has always been there, it has become a lot more obvious with the artistic direction they seem to be taking. Ben is the strength of this couple, he over shines her in every aspect of their skating. Which is a bit strange since in gala she knows how to do the tricks.
A little bit more of work from her alone would add a lot.

Fourth : their coach is, as of now, the biggest issue. Shpilband is a great coach BUT he lacks what makes ice dance what it is : a vision of what the sport will become. He reroduces every year the same programs with generic music and classic outfit. He never takes risks and he lets his students down in this particular way. Great technique if not the best, but zero ideas, zero innovations, zero artistc direction.
Either they find a choreographer that can help them, either they should go and find another coach.

 

[Big Deal]

Dear MarieM!

You've really caught the truth!!!.
They have been the solution in 2005. to prepare Navka/Kostomarov's Olympic Gold . At that time it looked they won't be even able to compete at the Oly a year later because of Tanith's citizenship issue. So they've been overscored like hell to show, nobody else is even closed to the Russians a year later, just to make sure the Bulgarians, Lithuanians and French couple is in a far distance behind (which never been the case, of course). They also used the horrible Ukrainian couple (Grushina/ Goncharov) at the same way and reason.

They finally could go to the Olympic Games. Got the Silver (undeservedly, I think with their overscored marks. Than the shock came at the World. Navka/Kostomarov was not there. But to give a World Title to a couple like Belbin/Agosto ( I'm talking about the situation they have been in 2006.) ?????
No way. So Denkova/Staviyski and Debreuil/Lauzon finally got their real points to be 1st and 2nd.

Their YEAR to get the "pay back" was expected to be 2007. But the Bulgarians and Canadians (who both announced before to retire in 2006.) decided to stay.......Can you remember how underscored was the Bulgarian couple at the European in 2007. to show them: enough is enough???? And than they won the World with the same quality of skating (deservedly so).

2008. is the first year of the "preparation" of the next Olympic Gold Medal.
So everything was prepared(even the panel of the judges) for the Russian Gold.
Even at the European Domn/Shab. won with very visible mistakes. But the Russians could not come!
So, that was Belbin/Agosto 3rd chance, when all the couple ranked above them was not there!!!Than Tanith had this fall in the CD.
That was the time when they started to get the points they deserves (sorry).
Judges was ready to give the Gold them this time to say "thank you" for them.
But now their only way to try to fix the (Dom.Shab)OGM is to give ( thanks God) the Gold to Del/Schönfelder, who (they hopes) will retire aftre this big win. It was without a real risk, because if they stay, next year it can be announced, they was beaten by the Russains in every event they participated together in 2008.

So, even with that the situation is not comfortable for the "politics" because the deserved rising of Virtue/Moir. Judges already started to stop Davis/White, if you see carefully!!! Also there is a big chance to Khohlova/Novitski, because they are not just "heldable" in the future but audience also like them. So, it shouldn'be as scandallous to put them to win than the rather boring (and choreographically tasteless) Domnina/Shabalin in the future.
The only sure thing is: There is no more chance to Belbin/Agosto. It is sad, but that is the truth...
Their only chance to play the same role than in 2005. in 2009 in the pre-Oly year, like 1.Domn/Shabalin 2.Belbin/Agosto, because judges can be sure they will be easily beaten by the Russians a year later.

The ISU politics (having enormous power and influence) wants the Oly like this:
1. Domnina/Shabalin
2.Virtue/Moir ( will be a scandal, I think, so maybe they will choose Khohlova/Novitski to win to be less scandallous at the Arena, as long as audience like this Russian couple much better- rightly so)
3. Kh/ Novitski. ( Or changed 1 and 3 see above why).

After 1994, when Torvill/ Dean was beaten by 2 Russian couples it is clear what is going on there, and the actual skating just bother some of the judges to do the pre-conception.


Even with that, without the strong political influence this World was fantastic and the most enjoyable event . I hope to have the same opened competitions in the future. Dreaming????

 

[merrybari]

I think they focus on their job every season.They both seem very dedicated to their sport.

They've been experimenting with new looks, trying to get that more mature look that many used to say they were lacking (because of the elvis program among others), and they wanted new lifts...

I honestly don't get why they aren't allowed to have a bad season, or really just bad competition. I think they'll come back hungry next season and be just fine.

Well said!!

 

[ManyCairns]

^ BigDeal has it right on the money.

The spanner in the works is that Dom/Shab couldn't compete this year, and K/N had to step up to the plate. So they can't send K/N completely back down; they were there when they were needed. So, as Deal said, it may be K/N over D/S.

B/A might pull a Del/Schoe and win a World Gold if they stay well after 2010, when it's not a building year for an Olympics, if they maintain their skills and quality. And certainly, B/A _may_ be allowed some more Grand Prix golds -- just to show, hey, we don't always hold up certain teams.

 

[luvsasha]

^^is that how Ice Dance always is???!! because i think that's really stupid, and unfair to the athletes (i guess that's kind of understating it).

 

[MarieM]

^^is that how Ice Dance always is???!! because i think that's really stupid, and unfair to the athletes (i guess that's kind of understating it).

Well if you want a sense of what unfair judging is, have a look at both DenStav and DelSchoen's careers. When they were not judged as dangerous for the russian annointed ones, they were nearly well where they should have been.
When it became clear they were the real danger, the russians picked the team that was technically good enough to be credible but where noone would ever say they should have won over their russian skaters.

Althought COP is getting at all that crap since the judges can't do it. Before with the 6.0 it was pretty easy to rig an event. Now it's a lot more difficult even if you play with the PCS or GOE. And it has done ice dance a good kick in the *** althought some teams were so far always overmarked. The trend at this world in all categories has been to give all skaters a fair overview of where they really seat.

And guess what, I bet they'll do the same with Virtue and Moir, unless these two GET a real choreographer.

 

[fiercemao]

Russia

They need to apply for two Russian passports. Problem solved.

 

[luvsasha]

Well if you want a sense of what unfair judging is, have a look at both DenStav and DelSchoen's careers. When they were not judged as dangerous for the russian annointed ones, they were nearly well where they should have been.
When it became clear they were the real danger, the russians picked the team that was technically good enough to be credible but where noone would ever say they should have won over their russian skaters.

Althought COP is getting at all that crap since the judges can't do it. Before with the 6.0 it was pretty easy to rig an event. Now it's a lot more difficult even if you play with the PCS or GOE. And it has done ice dance a good kick in the *** althought some teams were so far always overmarked. The trend at this world in all categories has been to give all skaters a fair overview of where they really seat.

And guess what, I bet they'll do the same with Virtue and Moir, unless these two GET a real choreographer.

Oh, yeah, DelShoes got robbed so many times...it's sad. but i'm glad that they finally got a world title. I don't know as much about DenStavs career...when did they get robbed by the judges?

LOL, fiercemao..it's actually kind of sad that if they did, their problems would be solved.