Six of the 10 Top Ladies in the Worlds at Skate Amercia

[Joesitz (RIP)]

When I think about it four of them are going to lose out on big points to make the GP Final. Am I correct?

The qualifying number of points to make the Finals may be lowered this year.

 

[R.D.]

They should totally base the GP final qualifications on total Cop points. The old way doesn't really work any more, because skaters who are competing in weaker fields automatically gain an advantage while skaters in tough fields could miss out even if their scores were good enough to win or place 2nd some of the other events.

 

[Kypma]

They should totally base the GP final qualifications on total Cop points. The old way doesn't really work any more, because skaters who are competing in weaker fields automatically gain an advantage while skaters in tough fields could miss out even if their scores were good enough to win or place 2nd some of the other events.

I think the problem with using the CoP points is that judging panels aren't necessarily consistent from one competition to the other. Actually, some just plain aren't. Remember Skate America and Skate Canada last year? The technical specialist (?) at SA was much stricter on downgrades than the one at SCI, and this discrepancy resulted in lower scores. Still, I agree tha tthe old method on placings isn't great, either...

Kypma

 

[ChrisH]

I'd say 6 of the 11 main contenders for the GPF are at Skate America.

Yes, afterwards 4 of them will not be in good shape to make the final. Yet it's conceivable that only 1 of them will make the final or as much as 4 of them will make it.

Nagasu has the same scenario that Rochette had last year. She's facing Nakano in both events, Asada and Kim in one event, and has a home event. Nagasu and Nakano could knock both of themselves out by splitting their events.

I see your point as to how the concentration of ladies may lower the qualifying points. I don't think it'll make much of a difference, though. 24 points were needed to qualify last year. There were 9 main contenders. There aren't 6 of 9 main contenders concentrated in one event, but 6 of 11. I think the qualifying points will be 26 or 24 points.

 

[Tinymavy15]

This happens all the time. The better skaters are bumped because they were assigned GP spots where the competition was tough. Having a great skate and placing third twice doesn't get to go. The skater who got the silver twice by default gets the trip. But then again, that is what makes the GPF interesting. it is not a repeat of worlds... instead a sampling of 6 of the top skaters.

 

[Ptichka]

I agree with Tinymavy. Yes, there is an element of luck in how GP assignments are drawn, but it's not like GPF claims to determine who the best skater is - we have Worlds for that.

 

[R.D.]

I think the problem with using the CoP points is that judging panels aren't necessarily consistent from one competition to the other. Actually, some just plain aren't. Remember Skate America and Skate Canada last year? The technical specialist (?) at SA was much stricter on downgrades than the one at SCI, and this discrepancy resulted in lower scores. Still, I agree tha tthe old method on placings isn't great, either...

Kypma

That's true about the scoring consistency. So what to suggest? I still think basing GPF by total points would be better than the current system, although as you pointed out, not ideal. Any method will have its flaws, some bigger than others. This way, you truly get the best GP skaters in the GPF, and not just those who had "easier" events. JMO...

Unless one were to change the GP format completely to more of a "tournament" style, although for ice skating that may not work too well or draw crowds...

 

[hockeyfan228]

I don't think it's that big of a deal.

First, World Rankings are cumulative, and everyone is constantly complaining that they are meaningless, especially when a skater/pair takes a season off and is still top 10.

Second USFS had to pick someone from 1-3, someone from 4-6, and someone from 7-9. If they didn't pick Meissner, they would have had to pick Lepisto or Korpi.

Third, Ando, Zhang, and Flatt consisted of a mini-round, based on having higher PB's than Worlds #6, Sarah Meier. Since each were guaranteed two, every Federation had to choose one or another, in addition to their own 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9. Flatt was already selected, so she was out. Zhang couldn't be the fourth US lady, so Ando it was. Every other Federation had to choose one of the three, so it's not like the deck was stacked so harshly against USFS.

The USFS wasn't forced to choose Flatt and Nagasu. They could have chosen two out of Wagner, Hacker, and Liang, and let Flatt and Nagasu be chosen by any of the other Federations. Their choices had zero to do with the overall selection process, that this year required the additional choice of a top 10 skater for every single host nation, in addition to a selection from each top 12 group. The USFS made its bed. I don't see why the selection process should change because a host nation made the competition more difficult for their own skaters by their own choice.

 

[dorispulaski]

I agree with you, but I do wish that USFS would make their choices on what is best for the skaters and less on what is best for ticket sales.

Their choice has been to pack SA with as much US talent as they are allowed to.

 

[merrybari]

I agree with you, but I do wish that USFS would make their choices on what is best for the skaters and less on what is best for ticket sales.[/ QUOTE]


Well said!!! ITA!! :agree:

 

[Mathman]

My two cents.

1. I do not agree with basing the finals on garnering CoP points rather than on winning individual events. To me, this would take all the interest out of the individual events. Each skater would just be skating against him/herself, trying to beat his/her personal best or wthaever. The sense of a competition would be lost. The effect would be as if each skater stayed home, skated a practice program, and mailed in the score.

2. In the debate over making each event as exciting and competive as possible as opposed to playing a strategy for nurturing your favored skater into the finals, I think I like the "make each event exciting and competitive" path better. You might get hit by a bus before the Grand Prix Finals, but at least they can put on your tombstone that you won Skate America!

3. The USFSA did put Rachael, Kimmie and Mirai in a position of skate or go home. Yu-na Kim and Yukari Nagasu are favored for two podium spots. If the American girls don't like it, beat them! :yes:

I like that mind set better than if USFS had said, poor little Racahel, she doesn't have a chance against the big girls. Let's throw Katrina Hacker under the train at Skate America instead, and hope that some weaker event will take Rachael.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

3. The USFSA did put Rachael, Kimmie and Mirai in a position of skate or go home. Yu-na Kim and Yukari Nagasu are favored for two podium spots. If the American girls don't like it, beat them! :yes:

And I presume you will be quoting these results and scores as if they were the most important events comparable to a World Championship,

Each event got one of the three podium Ladies World results. That's fair.

In Skate America, Flatt got YuNa, Yukari, Ando. Can't believe all events are fair. I'm not looking for whose fault that is.. I am just saying some very talented skaters are not going to make the Final. Why can't some see that point of view.

In Skate Canada, Zhang got Kostner, Suguri and Takeda. Does Zhang have a chance. You bet she does. This American girl has a great chance to 'beat them'.

Zhang's toughest competition will be in France if Rochette can skate her best.

Nagasu has the toughest competitions in SA and Japan.

Flatt, if she can get a bronze at SA, does have a chance for a win in Russia. Total point may add up to enough to be in the Final.

I'm not even sure if the Final will have the best of the best

For me, these events do not add up to more than dress rehearsals for the all inclusive World Championship. The personal bests, of course, will be shouted out ad infinitum If somebody improved from last year, I want to see it in the skating.

btw, Still no new from IceNetwork about the 5 other events?

 

[chuckm]

In Skate Canada, Zhang got Kostner, Suguri and Takeda. Does Zhang have a chance. You bet she does. This American girl has a great chance to 'beat them'.

Zhang's toughest competition will be in France if Rochette can skate her best.

I think there is no question that Zhang can beat Suguri and Takeda; Suguri has slipped since 2006, and Takeda doesn't have the money jumps. But you overlooked Rochette at Skate Canada, Joe. Rochette is more forbidable on home ice than she is away. And you can't completely dismiss Kostner, because the judges like her, even when she has a messy skate.

You're also forgetting that Asada is at TEB in addition to Rochette. So it is possible that Zhang could be the recipient of two bronze medals, and not get to the GPF, like Rochette last season.

Flatt is up against it at SA, no question. She is also skating for the first time at the Senior level, so she might not get PCS scores in line with her competitors. But if she can land her jumps with the consistency she showed last season, there is an outside chance she could win at CoR, if both Kostner and Meier falter.

I do agree that the USFS is more interested in ticket sales than in giving its top skaters the best chance to win medals. However, I don't see that Nagasu and Flatt are exactly household names. Sure, Nagasu is the reigning US Champion, but how many people in the immediate vicinity of Everett WA are hardcore skating fans and know who Nagasu and Flatt are?

The USFS probably offered SA to the top 2 skaters at Nationals and the former US Champion, and they accepted without realizing that they could be facing Ando, Kim and Nakano.

To give the USFS the benefit of the doubt, it is possible that they got a late draw and Kim and Nakano were the available seeds. There is lots of evidence to suggest that: the remainder of the ladies (Leung, Liu, Poykio, Dytryt, Marchei, Karademir) are not exactly top drawer. Liu and Karademir didn't even make the FS at Worlds, and Poykio was left out of both Euros and Worlds by her federation. The other 'top 12' skater besides Meissner was Dytrt (#12).

 

[Sackie]

My question is where did you get the '6' of the top 10 in the world? 2 of the entries are just up from Jrs and therefore do not fall into the 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9 catagories so they had to get slotted someplace in the GP events. It wouldn't be fair to give them the same 'ranking' as those that earned their ranking at worlds last year.

 

[Tinymavy15]

My two cents.

1. I do not agree with basing the finals on garnering CoP points rather than on winning individual events. To me, this would take all the interest out of the individual events. Each skater would just be skating against him/herself, trying to beat his/her personal best or wthaever. The sense of a competition would be lost. The effect would be as if each skater stayed home, skated a practice program, and mailed in the score.
.

I agree. Then the skaters at the GPF would all have a quad and weird choreography. The way it is now is the fairest.

 

[Mathman]

And I presume you will be quoting these results and scores as if they were the most important events comparable to a World Championship.

I wouldn't say comparable to a world championship, but I do think that these competitive athletes want to compete, they want to win, they want to beat the other guy at every competition that they skate in.

To me, it seems like what people are saying is, oh, poor little Mirai, she faces some tough competition. Why didn't the USFSA babysit her into the finals by arranging easier assignments for her?

Mirai's mind set at Skate America should be, "Poor Yu-na Kim. She has to skate against ME!"

 

[ChrisH]

How about poor Nagasu+Nakano fans? Rochette was the 4th or 5th best skater during the GPs last season and lost out due to her draw. Nakano skated like the true 3 seed last year and she likely will do so again. Nagasu's propects are like Rochette's of last year plus she has to face off against two former World Champions at SA. And, if Nagasu is to make it into the final, she may have to do so at the expense of Nakano.

I don't blame the USFS. The ISU should have a wildcard system. 5 spots based on placements points and 1 spot based on CoP points.

Actually, I'm thinking poor Rochette fans. Zhang may do what Nakano did last year. And Zhang beat Kostner easily in Kostner's 1st GP last year.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Rochette didn't make GPF last season, but she has the most consistent season since her senior debut. She made it to GPF in 2004 and then faltered at Worlds in 2005. She didn't get to GPF in 2005 but placed 5th in 2006 Olympics.

I wouldn't make a big deal about whether a skater makes it to GPF or not. It will all come out in a wash at Worlds.

 

[antmanb]

In Skate America, Flatt got YuNa, Yukari, Ando. Can't believe all events are fair. I'm not looking for whose fault that is.. I am just saying some very talented skaters are not going to make the Final. Why can't some see that point of view.

Well of course some very talented skaters are not going to make the GPF, only six get a coveted place. At the very least you could say the top half of a world's draw are very talented skaters.

I agree with others who have said - if you want to work out who is the best in the world, that is what we have worlds for. At the end of the season when everyone has hit their peak.

The autumn season is more for people to test out their programs, compete against some of their contemporaries (but not all of them) and get to see how the land lies before they all retreat to train for their national championships and the ISU championships.

Ant

 

[saltypig]

I was reading the rules on how it is assigned for this year and it appears to me that an event can only have 2 skaters who are ranked 1 to 6 in the prior year's worlds and those two will be assigned by draw.

Here is the link and it starts on page 3.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=956

It is also my understanding that a host federation can choose up to three participants and if it chooses one participant who happens to be ranked 1 to 6 then the event can only have another top 6 skater. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So for SA since no US girls made the top 6, Kim and Nakano were drawn and I assume randomly since it does mention it is a draw and not selected or invited.

So the USFS chose 3 girls - Meisnner, Nagusu and Flatt.

Not sure how Ando got in the mix but it would appear that her score of 177.66 (I assume nationals don't count) at the 08 Four Continents got her into 2 events under rule 2.1(c) since Sarah Meier finished 6 at worlds with 171.88. So maybe she was a random draw as well.

I think Kostner just got lucky that she did not draw Kim or Asada in any of her events and not because her federation was smart in choosing events for her so she could reach the GPF.