The Greatest Of All Time

[Magill]

To go back to the main topic of this thread of who we think the GOATs:
Men: Yuzuru Hanyu, an obvious choice, so much has been written already in this thread by myself and others to justify it
Women: Yuna Kim, as above
Pairs: Han/Sui
ID: Torvill/Dean (and an honourable mention goes to Papadakis/Cizeron whom I love the most but who - although OGMs- are nor accomplished enough to be considered GOATs against the competition)

 

[Ruthypegs]

For sure, I know about the famous Salchow Trophy that Ulrich Salchow himself gave to Dick Button because he admired his athletic skating prowess so much. Dick epitomized the vanguard of a new era of athleticism in figure skating, post WWII when North American skaters began to dominate for the first time.

I saw a clip from the Salchow award ceremony at 2024 U.S. Nationals. Jason Brown, as we would expect, was in tears and totally overcome with emotion. Dick Button could not be there, but Paul Wylie and John Misha Petkevich were there to take part in the award ceremony and presentation to Jason. They were all quite moved by the moment. Probably, the spirit of Salchow was present, and perhaps even that of the eager dog in the old skating clip, too.

Speaking of GOAT skaters, I will be very curious to see how the awarding of the Salchow Trophy every year is going to work out. It was presented by Salchow in 1947 to Dick Button after Salchow saw Dick skate at the 1947 World championships. Two years later, Salchow passed away. In 1972, Dick passed the trophy on to Petkevich because he so admired Petkevich's unique skating style and his career achievements (plus Petkevich attended Harvard, Dick's alma mater). In 2020, Petkevich decided to give the trophy to Paul Wylie, the 1992 Olympic silver medalist and Harvard alum who had a stellar pro career ( shame that pro opportunities no longer exist). In 2024, Jason is rewarded with the trophy as a consummate all-around skater and an exemplary artist-on-ice. Jason did not go to Harvard and he has never mastered the quad in competition, but he is a one-of-a-kind skater in an era of repetitive sameness in skating programs.

I would imagine that the Salchow Trophy will begin to be awarded to skaters like Deniss Vasiljevs, Yuma Kagiyama, and Shoma Uno (despite his retirement). Mikhail Kolyada would have been a worthy recipient, as well as Patrick Chan, Denis Ten, and Stephane Lambiel. Will the trophy remain in the men's sphere? If so, then a Sonja Henie Trophy, or a Peggy Fleming Trophy or a Janet Lynn Trophy should be created for the women's field.

Jason is certainly one of the all-time greats - not only is he one of the finest artists-on-ice, but he's changing the sport - his focus on artistry and PCS rather than quads, and then succeeding in top 5 finishes at Worlds in the last two years, is groundbreaking.

 

[Skater Boy]

To go back to the main topic of this thread of who we think the GOATs:
Men: Yuzuru Hanyu, an obvious choice, so much has been written already in this thread by myself and others to justify it
Women: Yuna Kim, as above
Pairs: Han/Sui
ID: Torvill/Dean (and an honourable mention goes to Papadakis/Cizeron whom I love the most but who - although OGMs- are nor accomplished enough to be considered GOATs against the competition)

I like your picks but I am not sure it should be unanimous not to mention Torvill and Dean might be outside of the 30 year parameters depending on how you look at it. Then if you include them then you have Gordeeva and GRinkov to consider. I Don't see Han and Sui as GOAT when I think most would have them behind Shen and Zhou. who were arguably better technicians and artists and then Its personal opinion I guess but if you put PC as honourable mentions how can you not add at least Virtue and Moir and maybe Davis and White Gritschuk and Platov. As for ladies I can see Kim. EVeryon e else is a one shot wonder at the olympics (gold) though Michelle never won GOLD at the Olympics she might qualify GOAT(Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes, ARakawa, Sotnikova, Zagitova and Scherkobva ? all kind of won gold and left/died out. Sui and Han also could have been second at Beiing.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Sui and Han also could have been second at Beiing.

I get that Sui/Han had some great programs, and they did evolve their style expressively, beyond the tricks they did so fantastically in their youth. But I am with you. I would even say instead:

"Sui/Han should have been second in Beijing."

But, sure the quad twist saved them, and they were in Beijing, after all, having held on by a quivering blade edge for four injury-filled seasons just to finally get Olympic gold. Another silver would have totally devastated Sui. We could see it on her face in the kiss 'n cry. And there are rumors of her wanting to come back. Another reason why a pro circuit is sorely needed.

 

[Magill]

I like your picks but I am not sure it should be unanimous not to mention Torvill and Dean might be outside of the 30 year parameters depending on how you look at it. Then if you include them then you have Gordeeva and GRinkov to consider. I Don't see Han and Sui as GOAT when I think most would have them behind Shen and Zhou. who were arguably better technicians and artists and then Its personal opinion I guess but if you put PC as honourable mentions how can you not add at least Virtue and Moir and maybe Davis and White Gritschuk and Platov. As for ladies I can see Kim. EVeryon e else is a one shot wonder at the olympics (gold) though Michelle never won GOLD at the Olympics she might qualify GOAT(Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes, ARakawa, Sotnikova, Zagitova and Scherkobva ? all kind of won gold and left/died out. Sui and Han also could have been second at Beiing.

Well, these are my personal choices.
Torvill and Dean have been brought up by several posters already noting that "the last 3 decades" is not really counted to the day, well, months in this case. So, as no one opposed such a point really, by now they have just become a part of the selection range, I think, haven't they? So I selected them as I think they were true ID GOATs. As for mentioning P/C and no one else - again, honourable mention is just that I love them and want to mention that, although I will not pretend they are accomplished enough to be counted as GOATs against Torvill and Dean in any objective way. I do not think I need to mention anyone else in that way as these are my personal choices.
In general I believe if we think every great skater a GOAT, then it does not mean anything any more. I tend to think they are few and far between.

 

[Mathman]

Setting aside the quibble about "the last three decades," if we agree that one of the consideratrions for GOAT-hood is influence both on the sport itself and on how the sport is percieived by the public -- then I agree that Torvill and Dean stand alone. No one had ever heard of the sport of ice dance before T&D's Bolero. If anything the public attitude was, "You call this a sport?!"

 

[Mathman]

I will add, though, that in evaluating the "greats" in any field, the question of whether someone was a nice giy or a jerk in civilian life is a separate and unrelated issue.

Was Einstein a great physicist? Yes. Was he a good husband and father? No. Did he harbor prejudice against Asians? Apparently so.

Was Issac Newton a great scientist? Yes. Did he have an unpleasant and abrasive personality that grated on everybody's nerves? As far as we can tell from contemporary sources, yes. But did he contribute geberously to charitable causes? Yes.

Was Archimedes a great theoretical and applied mathematician? Yes. Was he admirable in his personal qualities? Dunno.

 

[4everchan]

Setting aside the quibble about "the last three decades," if we agree that one of the consideratrions for GOAT-hood is influence both on the sport itself and on how the sport is percieived by the public -- then I agree that Torvill and Dean stand alone. No one had ever heard of the sport of ice dance before T&D's Bolero. If anything the public attitude was, "You call this a sport?!"

The quibble is important because it means our lists would completely change.
Forget about TD for one moment... but we couldn't name Gordeeva and Grinkov.. so we didn't.... since them, no team has really, in my opinion, skated with the perfect harmony G&G graced the discipline with.

To me ice dance is a serious dilemma : we can easily recognize the impact of TD on dance but then, the Duschesnays made the sport fun... and so did Bourne and Kraatz.. though I recognize these two teams were not as great ice dancers than others... When I was young, my favourite team was Klimova Ponomarenko. Then, even if we can name them now, which is something many people have done, Virtue and Moir are very important for the sport : they opened it up for the entire North America (with Davis and White of course). Before them, teams really had to wait their turn to even be in the mix... they didn't really wait for very long and won gold in Vancouver with an iconic performance I keep rewatching (I don't like to rewatch Boléro.. you know.. just personal taste I guess)... Also, Virtue and Moir were the first North American team to win Olympic dance medal... it really changed the sport for Canadians and Americans who now have so much depth in the field.. .

So yeah, so many factors come into play when picking a GOAT... and depending what the individual values, then, nominations will vary.

 

[Mathman]

Virtue and Moir are very important for the sport : they opened it up for the entire North America (with Davis and White of course). Before them, teams really had to wait their turn to even be in the mix... they didn't really wait for very long and won gold in Vancouver with an iconic performance...

To me, Virtue and Moir's rapid climb was made possible by Bourne and Kraatz chipping diligently away at the old "wait your turn" mentality. Eventully the ISU took a closer look at ice dance and made changes in scoring and judging traditions.

 

[4everchan]

To me, Virtue and Moir's rapid climb was made possible by Bourne and Kraatz chipping diligently away at the old "wait your turn" mentality. Eventully the ISU took a closer look at ice dance and made changes in scoring and judging traditions.

Really? I am not so sure. Virtue and Moir, had a strong junior career and transitioned really well into seniors (they did 4CC the same year they won JWC, and had finished in 3rd... so they were already making a name for themselves and probably because the pure quality of their skating and their unison). At their first WC, they finished 6nd... it took a few more years before they won, 4 years exactly, so they did wait a few years, for 1st at Worlds... but what was new was winning gold at their first Olympics. I should have been more precise.

Papadakis and Cizeron finished 13th at their first worlds, and then 1st the year after... Fair enough, it was a post-Olympic year and many teams were on hiatus or had retired.. BUT it is really only with them and perhaps they will remain forever the only team to not have to wait for their turn. Still, they were edged out at their first Olympics.

Right now, the world junior champions are still waiting for their turn. At worlds this year, Lajoie and Lagha (perhaps the most successful of the few most recent teams to have won JWC but also, the older ones) made progress finishing 5th. Some fans and experts see them undermarked... they could be closer to the top 3 ... and IMHO should be ahead of FG... but they are "waiting" ten years to get to the top...

Here's are BK's records (talk about waiting for your turn.... and of course, on how they were denied a podium at Olympics too.)

Event	92–93	93–94	94–95	95–96	96–97	97–98	98–99	99–00	00–01	01–02	02–03
Olympics​		10th				4th				4th
Worlds​	14th	6th	4th	3rd	3rd	3rd	3rd		4th	2nd	1st

Dubreuil and Lauzon, after BK and before VM: they clearly had to wait for their turn....

10th

11th

10th

10th

8th

7th

2nd

2nd

 

[Mathman]

What I remember from the arc of Bourne and Kraatz’ career is that in those days ice dance strictly meant Soviet Union / Russia. Canada had produced Brian Orser, Kurt Browning and Elvis Stoiko (who won an aggregate of 16 World medals). The United States paraded one lady after another to World and Olympic podiums. Ice Dance? Russia.

And not just in the sense of national and ISU politics. In addition, the Russian theatrical style was in ascendance over the (I call it British) “back to the ballroom.”

I don’t know how much the ISU cares about fans’ opinions, but there was a certain amount of agitation among North American skating enthusiasts that this Canadian team was not being rewarded adequately for what they were actually putting on the ice (sort of like Gilles and Poirier throughout their career ).

As for waiting your turn, I think that Papadakis and Cizeron are the only modern team that truly jumped the line (thus making Chock and Bates wait even longer .)

Still, I credit Bpurne and Kraatz with shaking things up to some extent.

 

[4everchan]

What I remember from the arc of Bourne and Kraatz’ career is that in those days ice dance strictly meant Soviet Union / Russia. Canada had produced Brian Orser, Kurt Browning and Elvis Stoiko (who won an aggregate of 16 World medals). The United States paraded one lady after another to World and Olympic podiums. Ice Dance? Russia.

And not just in the sense of national and ISU politics. In addition, the Russian theatrical style was in ascendance over the (I call it British) “back to the ballroom.”

I don’t know how much the ISU cares about fans’ opinions, but there was a certain amount of agitation among North America skating enthusiasts that this Canadian team was not being rewarded adequately for what they were actually putting on the ice (sort of like Gilles and Poirier throughout their career ).

As for waiting your turn, I think that Papadakis and Cizeron are the only modern team that truly jumped the line (thus making Chock and Bates wait even longer .)

Still, I credit Bpurne and Kraatz with shaking things up to some extent.

We can agree that Bourne and Kraatz shook things up. They also brought acrobatic moves to the sport. but... it didn't help Dubreuil and Lauzon who still had to wait their turn....
Ice Dance was mostly Russian indeed. Gosh.. that has changed over the years...

 

[TallyT]

I don't much like them - their on-ice personalities rub me the wrong way in every skate, and I am not one to claim that emotion isn't a part of any fannish love - but I would myself put Virtue and Moir over P/C, G/G and D/W, all of whom I prefer, their (again) impact on the sport along with their undeniable-as-in-look-at-all-those-medals-etc achievements are hard for me to argue with. So they are second, just behind Torvill and Dean and yes, if we are talking 30 years (in which case how did Henie get in there???) they would be first.

Ice Dance was mostly Russian indeed. Gosh.. that has changed over the years...

Chasing up something in the archives the other day, I think it was 2013, I came across a bunch of people discussing how Russia never had much Olympic success with women (well, apart from Slutskaya who some of them seemed to forget existed, sic transit gloria mundi and all that). And now look at the record....

 

[Mathman]

... and yes, if we are talking 30 years (in which case how did Henie get in there???) they (V&M) would be first.

True, true. We are seeking the GOLTY (greatest of the last thirty years).

 

[TallyT]

True, true. We are seeking the GOLTY (greatest of the last thirty years).

Then mine would change to Yuzu, Yuna, V/M (see I can be objective folks) and ummm.... I still don't know for pairs. Maybe I need to ask people to suggest great pair programs they think I would like

 

[4everchan]

I don't much like them - their on-ice personalities rub me the wrong way in every skate, and I am not one to claim that emotion isn't a part of any fannish love - but I would myself put Virtue and Moir over P/C, G/G and D/W, all of whom I prefer, their (again) impact on the sport along with their undeniable-as-in-look-at-all-those-medals-etc achievements are hard for me to argue with. So they are second, just behind Torvill and Dean and yes, if we are talking 30 years (in which case how did Henie get in there???) they would be first.



Chasing up something in the archives the other day, I think it was 2013, I came across a bunch of people discussing how Russia never had much Olympic success with women (well, apart from Slutskaya who some of them seemed to forget existed, sic transit gloria mundi and all that). And now look at the record....

well the sport has always gone through cycles...
At one point, American men couldn't jump a quad... and look at them now

 

[4everchan]

Then mine would change to Yuzu, Yuna, V/M (see I can be objective folks) and ummm.... I still don't know for pairs. Maybe I need to ask people to suggest great pair programs they think I would like

but you know, you don't have to be objective.

let's just put it this way... we can all agree that figure skating judging is not per se the most objective thing in the world... so how does one then proclaim goats or Goltys objectively when it's based on something far from objective..

I like these threads when we can just make our claims and that's it... People don't like VM? that's fine... I like them... .

 

[TallyT]

We don't have to be objective, sure but at the same time totally ignoring body of work and achievements would, for me, make the whole exercise a bit... well.

And V/M, like Yuzu and Yuna, inarguably do have that body in spades.

 

[Magill]

OP specifically asked posters to be objective.

 

[Mathman]

Then mine would change to Yuzu, Yuna, V/M (see I can be objective folks) and ummm.... I still don't know for pairs. Maybe I need to ask people to suggest great pair programs they think I would like

Here are a couple of my faves.

If it’s emotion you like, here is Shen and Zhao’s most thrilling program. Xue Shen had suffered an ankle injury earlier in the week while practicing a throw quad Salchow and had to take pain injections. She said afterwards that she couldn’t feel her legs and was just going on muscle memory.

Meanwhile the entire Washington. D.C. Chinese-American community, so it seemed, had turned out to cheer them on. They brought down the house. The performance even overshadowed Michelle Kwan’s fine LP that brought her the last of her five World Championships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qJ4klfNnE

If pretty-pretty-pretty is your thing (it’s mine ), I guess Gordeeva and Grinkov from the 1994 Olympics just barely squezes in for the 30 year cut-off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkIK-JTI7Ls

Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze (Callifa short program from 2002. But the Charlie Chaplin from from the previous year might have been even better.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enegcJGB4NY

Maybe someone will [post their favorite Sevchenko/Szolkowys.