The Greatest Of All Time

[4everchan]

Not the phrasing I would use. His 2011-2014 era programs are some his worst artistically IMO. That's what made it so infuriating when he got much higher PCS other others, especially for sloppy programs.

That's your opinion. Not necessarily everyone's. I actually loved that era of Chan,' skating. And wait.. that's also when he won three world titles so he may have been doing something right?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Only won 1 world title in my book. It's so much nicer to live in the world that recognizes Daisuke Takahashi as a 3 time world champion (2007, 2010, 2012).

The other awful thing about the 2011-2014 era is how the rules incentivized mistake-ridden quads, and jumps in general, more than any other code (jumps had the lowest amount of -GOE penalty ever, while at the same time quads had their highest base value ever). That contributed to Chan's "success".

 

[4everchan]

Only won 1 world title in my book. It's so much nicer to live in the world that recognizes Daisuke Takahashi as a 3 time world champion (2007, 2010, 2012).

The other awful thing about the 2011-2014 era is how the rules incentivized mistake-ridden quads, and jumps in general, more than any other code (jumps had the lowest amount of -GOE penalty ever, while at the same time quads had their highest base value ever). That contributed to Chan's "success".

Chan succeeded very well on his quads. That was rarely an issue for him. In that sense, if you are suggesting that his competitors were not fully penalized for their falls on their quads, I agree with you. Some titles may have switched hands with stricter GOE on failed quads. Chan was not always perfect. That's the reality. However, his quad toes were probably among the most secure out there. I am not going to start rescoring every failed quad out there though. That would take way too much time and if it is an interesting exercise at times, I prefer looking ahead rather than behind me. YMMv

 

[Blades of Passion]

You're twisting what was said. Chan was advantaged by quads having inflated value and mistakes in general not being punished enough. He constantly made mistakes, usually multiple major mistakes. He never skated a clean long program at Worlds/Olympics.

 

[Mathman]

Not the phrasing I would use. His 2011-2014 era programs are some his worst artistically IMO.

To me, Patrick's Elegy program (Jeff Buttle choreography) was an eye-opener, especially the 2012 exhibition version where he tried it out before turning it into a short program. I also thought that the Take Five short program, especially at 2011 Worlds, was a splendid interpretation of that cool jazz music.

I will say, though, that my all-time, all-time favorite Patrick remains Four Seasons at his first Canadian championship in 2008.

 

[Mathman]

The other awful thing about the 2011-2014 era is how the rules incentivized mistake-ridden quads, and jumps in general, more than any other code (jumps had the lowest amount of -GOE penalty ever, while at the same time quads had their highest base value ever).

The funny thing is that in the long run the ISU got what it wanted, sort of. By forcing everybody to attempt as many quads as possible no matter what, little by little skaters started getting better at it and eventually we came up with Nathan Chen and Ilia Malinin.

 

[Magill]

So it seems that watching and discussing YouTube videos of Patrick Chan did not bring us any closer to any common conclusions. People watched - but what they saw seems to have differed a lot. Which is not surprising at all. What we see - on YouTube or anywhere - depends so much on so many other not related factors, our pre-existing attitudes and opinions, what we expect to see, what we want to see etc., that it leads the discussion deep into the field of complete subjectivity.
Merriam_Webster, "America's most trusted dictionary", for instance, defines the GOAT as the most accomplished and successful individual in the history of a particular sport or category of performance, or activity. Not the "best".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goat
The "best" is totally subjective. Most accomplished and successful is not completely indisputable but so much less so...
Just food for thought...

 

[Mathman]

I think that "most accomplished" and "best" mean the same thing in this context. (Most successful is different, yes. You might be the world's most accomplished composer, but your works might not receive public and critical acclaim until you are dead.)

Accomplished: "proficient as a result of training and practice" (Merriam-Webster)

(But then again, is Merriam-Webster really "America's Most Trusted Dictionary" or is that just Merriam-Webster's opinion, perhaps somewhat biased? I think i will start a thread on it. )

Yuzuru Hanyu is the most accomplished skater of modern times. Here's why. His programs -- all we have to do to verify this is visit You Tube -- are models or organic integrity. One instant he is gliding along like an etherial angel, the next he is exploding into the air dispite the best efforts of the Devil to drag him back down to earth.

 

[Magill]

I think that "most accomplished" and "best" mean the same thing in this context. (Most successful is different, yes. You might be the world's most most accomplished composer, but your works might not receive public and critical acclaim until you are dead.)

Accomplished: "proficient as a result of training and practice" (Merriam-Webster)

(But then again, is Merriam-Webster really "America's Most Trusted Dictionary" or is that just Merriam-Webster's opinion, perhaps somewhat biased? I think i will start a thread on it. )

Yuzuru Hanyu is the most accomplished skater of modern times. Here's why. His programs -- all we have to do to verify this is visit You Tube -- are models or organic integrity. One instant he is gliding along like an etherial angel, the next he is exploding into the air dispite the best efforts of the Devil to drag him back down to earth.

Yuzuru Hanyu is the GOAT of modern times. Agreed

 

[Mathman]

Yuzuru Hanyu is the GOAT of modern times. Agreed

And when people complain, "that's just your opinion," I paraphrase Dick Button: "Of course it's my opinion. I wouldn't say it if it weren't." (What Dick actually said was: "Of course it's my opinion. Giving my opinion is what i I get paid for.")

 

[Magill]

And when people complain, "that's just your opinion," I paraphrase Dick Button: "Of course it's my opinion. I wouldn't say it if it weren't." (What Dick actually said was: "Of course it's my opinion. Giving my opinion is what i I get paid for.")

Thank you
And I hope you know what for

 

[TallyT]

The funny thing is that in the long run the ISU got what it wanted, sort of. By forcing everybody to attempt as many quads as possible no matter what, little by little skaters started getting better at it and eventually we came up with Nathan Chen and Ilia Malinin.

And declining interest in Nathan Chen and Iliam Malinin's country/continent. Swings and roundabouts, I guess.

 

[Mathman]

The bizarre thing thing about the precipitous decline of interest in figure skating in the United States is that it began way before any of this, back when skating was all over TV, back when Michelle Kwan was riding high as the most popu;lar female athlete in America, when the ISU and USFSA were awash in cash, somewhare around 2000 even before the 2002 Olynpic Pairs controversy and the IJS... all of a sudden sports fans and entertainment-seekers went in a different direction.

Evan Lysacek, who's he? Davis and White? Isn't that the girl who was on the TV show Dancing With The Stars? (Meryl was, however, the GOAT of DWTS Taking over from the previous GOAT, Kristi Yamaguchi)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Blades of Passion]

The market became oversaturated with underwhelming skating shows, audiences grew tired of it and then the 2002 controversy and new scoring system continued to drive more and more people away. 2007 is when it started getting really bad, with the U.S. women being underwhelming and underrotated jumps that visually didn't look too bad being absolutely murdered by the scoring system. Competition results frequently didn't make sense, the programs were getting uglier, and there were no stars or interesting personalities left for people to follow.

 

[saine]

Evan Lysacek, who's he? Davis and White? Isn't that the girlwho was on the TV show Dancing With The Stars? (Meryl was, however, the GOAT of DWTS Taking over from the previous GOAT, Kristi Yamaguchi)

Poor Charlie White, all I remember of his DWTS run was dropping his umbrella during his Mary Poppins routine (twice? I can't remember if he dropped it again in the finale.)

 

[Mathman]

Poor Charlie White, all I remember of his DWTS run was dropping his umbrella during his Mary Poppins routine (twice? I can't remember if he dropped it again in the finale.)

Charlie was doomed from the get-go. He was paired with an older (at least older-seeming) pro and they came off as a little brother-big sister act. Meanwhile Meryl was partnered with a sexy roguish leading man type and they milked the flirty showmance angle to perfection all season.

 

[saine]

Charlie was doomed from the get-go. He was paired with an older (at least older-seeming) pro and they came off as a little brother-big sister act. Meanwhile Meryl was partnered with a sexy roguish leading man type and they milked the flirty showmance angle to perfection all season.

Now that you said that, Evan Lysacek being runner-up to Nicole Scherzinger makes total sense since that was the same kind of pairings they had (minus the showmance angle? It's been 14 years.) I thought he would've had a better chance at winning coming straight off an Olympic gold medal, but nope. No being the GOAT of DWTS for him.

 

[4everchan]

hehe.. i love how this conversation is getting into finding GOATs in other things, like a reality/entertainment show... just shows how much value such a title really means

I think it's normal. I was going through some old news and several years ago, a big tragedy happened not so far away from where I used to live... I wasn't touched directly or even remotely personally by it.. but the proximity... I remember watching the news while abroad, and I cried... yet, there are similar tragedies every other day on the planet... but I only got affected to the point of crying because I knew the place ? It's just a natural human bias. Same with GOAT labeling. Human, biased, subjective opinion.

I would suggest another topic at this point, which would allow us to go back memory lane, because truly, the best part of this thread was looking up all the examples that came in, including Salchow's but I am not sure I yet have an idea. ... if I do, i will post. I am unpacking as I just moved and finally found the corkscrew

 

[Mathman]

hehe.. i love how this conversation is getting into finding GOATs in other things, like a reality/entertainment show... just shows how much value such a title really means

Yeah, GOAT-talk is fun... until it isn't. It stops beng fun when we start bashing other people's favorites, thinking that somehow this advances the reputation of our own. It is not fun when our own hero-infatuation prevents us from appreciating the contributions of others.

To me (YMMD) the GOAT of posts on this thread was the one that said, hey guys, what about Stannick Jeannette -- wasn't he something?!

Yes he was.

 

[4everchan]

Yeah, GOAT-talk is fun... until it isn't. It stops beng fun when we start bashing other people's favorites, thinking that somehow this advances the reputation of our own. It is not fun when our own hero-infatuation prevents us from appreciating the contributions of others.

To me (YMMD) the GOAT of posts on this thread was the one that said, hey guys, what about Stannick Jeannette -- wasn't he something?!

Yes he was.

Yes, unfortunately, let's hope that this comes out of passion and not ill-intent. I am a greedy fan. I don't want a GOAT... I want the whole herd anyway