Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[rabidline]

Over /one/ bad Grand Prix? At least wait until next week for Kagiyama to restore some order with some competent skating.

Also whaddya know, men did improve at NHK. I should do this more often

 

[lariko]

The reason that now we're not getting that content from the senior women is that all the senior women from that period have either retired or lost their entire technical content. Now only the survivors remain: those who had resigned themselves back then, and stuck with the jump content they were physically able to do are still with us and now able to win things because the skaters that are used to be able to deliver higher technical content can't do it anymore. Prime example of this is Kaori, of course. And even she had her ups and downs.

This is exactly what I am saying. Frolova and Sinitsina in Russia is a parallel to Sakomoto in internationals. When the influx of women in the first phase of their career is no longer allowed in seniors, hence the lower number of competitors and lower technical content. Sustainable is a relative term. It is sustainable for the ages 13-17, it may be sustainable after a break and retraining, i.e. what Glenn is doing now and what Tuktamysheva did, what Higuchi might do. We will see what Nakai would deliver next year in seniors and how long her technical content will be there. We'll (or at least I will, heh) also see how the women who didn't compete internationally develop in Russia in the 18+ age range, i.e. Gorbacheva, Murav'yeva and the ever-surprising Trusova.

 

[lariko]

Aymoz won by 0.4 (0.4!) points. He skated to his personal best whereas Malinin had some mistakes. The difference in PCS was only 3 points (but should be 43) and 5 out of 9 judges still put Malinin first.

Of course, there is noise and there are some rare cases when ISU throws the bone to the fans and gives a medal to a skater with good components. But when it comes to the real battle, they will go with the one who has a higher tech score. Because ISU lobbiests come from those training camps where the focus is on tech elements and skating skills are seen as a waste of time.

You know what, you wanna whine that you're a loser when you're winning, who am I to deny you the pleasure.

 

[Mathman]

I am a little bit nervous about too much micro-managing. The rules of the sport are clear. You get so many points for this and so many points for that, regardless of your age, body type, etc. If you outjump the other guy, you will probably win -- but sometimes a less impressive jumper can put together a "plan B" and come out on top.

Kamila Valieva had good choreogrphy in her Girl on a Ball routine. No, no, this is impossible, she was only 14. Fourteen-year-olds can't do choreography.

Midori Ito can still do a double Axel at age fifty-something -- impossible, she has passed through puberty!

Sometimes I think it would be better just to let the skaters skate.

 

[DancingCactus]

Women have been doing 3A for ages after passing puberty. Someone more knowledgeable about jump tech might correct me but I think the technique you need for a 3A is complete different from what the Russian quad girls did with the wrenching around of the upper body, prerotation and whole blade assist? Trusova never managed a decent 3A. I believe you need actual lower body power to hurl yourself in an Axel facing forward?

If I'm correct it would make sense that grown women can jump 3A whereas noone has yet found a way for women to jump quads with a grownup's body and without ruining their bodies overtraining.

 

[Mathman]

Women have been doing 3A for ages after passing puberty. Someone more knowledgeable about jump tech might correct me but I think the technique you need for a 3A is complete different from what the Russian quad girls did with the wrenching around of the upper body, prerotation and whole blade assist? Trusova never managed a decent 3A. I believe you need actual lower body power to hurl yourself in an Axel facing forward?

If I'm correct it would make sense that grown women can jump 3A whereas noone has yet found a way for women to jump quads with a grownup's body and without ruining their bodies overtraining.

What an interesting point. Yes, women athletes often excel in lower body strength. It is why women gymnasts do the balance beam and floor, while men do the rings and pommel horse to display their upper body muscles..

In ice skating, just stroking around develops the characteristic "skater's bubble butt."

 

[rabidline]

Sustainable is a relative term. It is sustainable for the ages 13-17, it may be sustainable after a break and retraining, i.e. what Glenn is doing now and what Tuktamysheva did, what Higuchi might do. We will see what Nakai would deliver next year in seniors and how long her technical content will be there. We'll (or at least I will, heh) also see how the women who didn't compete internationally develop in Russia in the 18+ age range, i.e. Gorbacheva, Murav'yeva and the ever-surprising Trusova.

Yes, my perspective on it is that it's not sustainable when the skaters are so broken they're barely able to land jumps anymore even in shows after retirement, or so compromised they're not allowed to jump, so there is no more opportunity for "a break and retraining". Amber, even with her share of injuries, has yet to reach that point.

It's interesting that you mentioned Nakai, because when I saw her back on the junior circuit (with a somewhat better 3A too) after a pretty serious injury last season that took her out entirely after JGPF last year, I thought that this may be a good sign- both her and her team knew to take the break when the opportunity was presented to them. The judge is still out on her, but I am curious on whether that can translate into senior success.

 

[Skating91]

Does it occur that the high technical content provided in 2018-2022 by the senior women was likely achieved through unsustainable means? We don't even have to touch the doping allegations, but simply the way they were trained, their nutrition intake and eating habits, the endless repetition and drilling (and not only Russian women do this, but also skaters like Rika Kihira and Satoko Miyahara under Mie Hamada... whose jumps and bodies did break down at some point).

The reason that now we're not getting that content from the senior women is that all the senior women from that period have either retired or lost their entire technical content. Now only the survivors remain: those who had resigned themselves back then, and stuck with the jump content they were physically able to do are still with us and now able to win things because the skaters that are used to be able to deliver higher technical content can't do it anymore. Prime example of this is Kaori, of course. And even she had her ups and downs.

If you look at all the quads now from girls in Russian novices or juniors, the products of different coaches, different methods, from different regions, it would seem that quads aren't beyond the realms of possibility for females, and there is nothing sinister going on. Russia has a much deeper pool of talent, much higher participation rate than anywhere else in the world with a high population, the odds are much higher that they will find females that have the ability to jump quads.

Basketball is popular in Lithuania, it is popular in the USA. But the Americans have more success, produced players like Michael Jordan and Lebron James. Why can't the Lithuanians achieve that kind of success, and why can't they jump into the air like Jordan or Lebron. Hmmm, must be something nefarious right . It wouldn't be due to a huge talent pool from basketball being a relatively popular sport in a country of 350 million?

Quads didn't break Valieva she is still performing, was jumping a quad at age 17 with a normal athletic muscular build, Shcherbakova won everything and has been banned from competing at World's three years in a row so likely has little motivation (she would earn more from one Chinese endorsement than most skaters make in a career), Trusova is banned from World's as well can make a lot more money in shows than she ever would competing. Petrosian is 17 jumping quads and triple axels. If she wasn't banned from competing she would be winning everything with 20-30 points in hand. If you look at Petrosian's level in domestic competitions where there is nothing left for her to win, imagine what level she would display internationally especially in an Olympic year?

A lot of people were hoping that banning skaters and lifting the age limit would eradicate quads from women's skating, but it's here to stay.

Also, someone also mentioned the pre-rotation of quad girls which is a common trope to discredit them, but I recently saw the number 2 female in the world consistently prerotate nearly 270 degrees on triples and still underrotate. I don't know what upsets someone about prerotation on a quad, but ignore all the prerotation on triples.

 

[rabidline]

If you look at all the quads now from girls in Russian novices or juniors, the products of different coaches, different methods, from different regions, it would seem that quads aren't beyond the realms of possibility for females, and there is nothing sinister going on. Russia has a much deeper pool of talent, much higher participation rate than anywhere else in the world with a high population, the odds are much higher that they will find females that have the ability to jump quads.

I'm not saying it's beyond the realms of possibility for women, I'm just saying that maybe the work that was needed to make it possible, with the intensity that the skaters were doing them, was unsustainable for a long period. Clearly it's possible, we've seen it. But the problem here is that it seems to have done damage in the long run and now we're suffering from shortages of skaters with that same level of consistency in the past because they all have physical issues, both internationally and in Russia.

And I'm not just talking about girls and women who can do quads or 3As- look at the peaks of Medvedeva and Zagitova, or even Miyahara and Kihira: the layout, the consistency and the backloading (before the rules changed) and look at the way they all dropped off: nursing physical injury and visibly can't maintain the jumps that were their highest scoring weapons. We can talk about possible motivation issues, but there are times when you watch the skate and you realize that they just physically can't do certain jumps in a certain way with a certain consistency level anymore.

Obviously, this is normal in sports- physical abilities decrease as athletes get older. It just happens so fast in figure skating in a cycle that leads to the drop-off in peak form right now. And on the expectations for current skaters to reach that same level, it's possible that skaters who have seen what happened to their peers and competitors choose to take the "safer" route and pursue competitive layouts that are more forgiving to their physical state, to prioritize health and longevity.

 

[Skating91]

Women have been doing 3A for ages after passing puberty. Someone more knowledgeable about jump tech might correct me but I think the technique you need for a 3A is complete different from what the Russian quad girls did with the wrenching around of the upper body, prerotation and whole blade assist? Trusova never managed a decent 3A. I believe you need actual lower body power to hurl yourself in an Axel facing forward?

If I'm correct it would make sense that grown women can jump 3A whereas noone has yet found a way for women to jump quads with a grownup's body and without ruining their bodies overtraining.

For all intents, Trusova never had a 3A. She would defy her coaches and attempt it out of stubborness. Cost her an Olympic gold.

Valieva who is a giant in terms of figure skaters (would be 10cm taller than Sakamoto and Hendrickx for example and a much more athletic build as well as a feminine shape) was landing quads at 17. That's a demotivated Valieva who was going through horrific mental trauma at the time and clearly wasn't giving 100%.

 

[4everchan]

What an interesting point. Yes, women athletes often excel in lower body strength. It is why women gymnasts do the balance beam and floor, while men do the rings and pommel horse to display their upper body muscles..

In ice skating, just stroking around develops the characteristic "skater's bubble butt."

There are more pragmatic reasons why men don't do balance beam and uneven bars.

 

[Skating91]

I found that Valieva quad from a year ago at age 17.5 that I was referring to. Have you ever seen a better jump in your life? Incredible.

 

[lariko]

Meanwhile, men in Finland again collectively produced a poor showing including the winner of the event, who was 5th in the free skate. Women and pairs remain unwatchable. Ice dance continues to thrive

 

[4everchan]

Meanwhile, men in Finland again collectively produced a poor showing including the winner of the event, who was 5th in the free skate. Women and pairs remain unwatchable. Ice dance continues to thrive

Then, don't watch I mean, some events are better than others I still enjoy. Pairs : Max and Deanna were stellar yesterday. Flawless performance of the highest level technically.

 

[lariko]

Then, don't watch I mean, some events are better than others I still enjoy. Pairs : Max and Deanna were stellar yesterday. Flawless performance of the highest level technically.

I don't, hence unwatchable. I look at the results first for the group before investing my valuable time.

 

[4everchan]

I don't, hence unwatchable.

There are many reasons why a skater can finish 1st overall despite a 5th place in the LP... Here it was one of these events where those who were good in the SP faltered in the LP and vice versa...
Come back skates are exciting to watch too.

 

[lariko]

There are many reasons why a skater can finish 1st overall despite a 5th place in the LP... Here it was one of these events where those who were good in the SP faltered in the LP and vice versa...
Come back skates are exciting to watch too.

If it was Malinin, we would be flooding in the comments about how it was oh! So unfair! And shouldn't have been! Ever! Aymoz should have won! The FS is doomed! I am waiting on salty tears about how Japanese were underscored in PCSs and Grassl overscored.

 

[4everchan]

If it was Malinin, we would be flooding in the comments about how it was oh! So unfair! And shouldn't have been! Ever! Aymoz should have won! The FS is doomed! I am waiting on salty tears about how Japanese were underscored in PCSs and Grassl overscored.

Actually, Grassl was scored properly on PCS The event was pretty well scored. Yuma was penalized on PCS because really, he didn't skate well. Kévin had a bad quad but recovered and delivered. He wasn't as good as at SKAM but he was performing well. You can have a look at the thread... I didn't see any comments yet about the scoring.

 

[lariko]

Actually, Grassl was scored properly on PCS The event was pretty well scored. Yuma was penalized on PCS because really, he didn't skate well. Kévin had a bad quad but recovered and delivered. He wasn't as good as at SKAM but he was performing well. You can have a look at the thread... I didn't see any comments yet about the scoring.

Nah. I'll watch Grassl after Tallinn's dance WU group 2, then do dance.

 

[4everchan]

@lariko I am glad you are warming up to ice dance which wasn't your cup of tea when you first joined this forum if I recall correctly.

If you are bored with the current men/pairs/women, have a look at former greats and see for yourself why we had better programs back then.... Too many quads now... less skating.