Ladies LP

[Tigger]

Tigger, you are being overly sensitive and taking a fairly mild, general comment personally. Many of us are visually challenged, including me. Since you are calling me "arrogant" and offensive" you are personally attacking me. But here's the reality, I don't care what you think.

First off...If I was overly sensitive, I wouldn't even belong to a skating forum. Some of the postings and comments by certain posters do go over the top and also rather disgusting at times.

However, when I see someone use the term "visually challenged" in such a disgusting manner as you did in your post, not to mention the overall superior tone to your postings this weekend, I will call that person on it. It's one thing to try and make your point, but you crossed a line when you decided to word it that way.

Oh and if that's *not* an attack on all of us here at GS, then I don't know what is. So before accusing me of attacking you, perhaps a look in the mirror at yourself might be in order.

Secondly...I'm going to now quite happily put you on Ignore. It's going to make the rest of the season here at GS far more enjoyable.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Blades of Passion
I wouldn't look so deep in this. It's just a skating program.


In my opinion, she skated her LP better at TEB. And SP was of the same quality.

Yeah, I have to agree. I preferred Sherezade to Gershwin, but at worlds somehow the entire last spin did not even count and she only did a 3 flip/3toe, not a 3 lutz/3 toe. However, at worlds i think the axel/3 toe combo was in the second half while here it was not.

 

[Ptolemy]

I also think Yu Na's scores are inflated. Her spins are o.k but not great. her spirals o.k. but I have seen better. Her layback not so good. Her jumps ARE textbook. I think Mao and Yu Na should be closer score wise. In the old days, this would have been the case. You need a road map to navigate the scoring system and if you are a casual viewer, it is impossible. Scores SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED AND DISSECTED. That says it all.

Are you saying she was over scored in CoP or over scored if we were back in the old days? If you mean over scored today based on CoP how do you account for 9 judges making that same error? Possibly they are seeing things we cannot.

 

[i love to skate]

I also think Yu Na's scores are inflated. Her spins are o.k but not great. her spirals o.k. but I have seen better. Her layback not so good. Her jumps ARE textbook. I think Mao and Yu Na should be closer score wise. In the old days, this would have been the case. You need a road map to navigate the scoring system and if you are a casual viewer, it is impossible. Scores SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED AND DISSECTED. That says it all.

What exactly did a 5.6 mean? How about a 5.7 or a 5.3? They didn't mean anything. In the past the results were always dissected - don't you recall the nightmares of 5/4 splits? If you looked at the ordinals when they were laid out it after a competition they would make little to no sense at all. The ordinal system was much more complicated than COP.

 

[Ptolemy]

Bond girls are pure sex. That is their only purpose and that is the SP she has chosen. She is CLEARLY trying to portray such a thing.

That aside, the idea of desirability is always a factor. If you know nothing at all about someone, but they appeal to you visually, then that is automatically going to be a plus. Even when Yu-Na isn't specifically trying to have sexy choreography, it comes across. That is part of why she receives the scores she does. She presents herself in a more appealing manner than any other female skater out there right now. People want her, or want to be her. This is the definition of "star quality".

Also, she didn't skate better at TEB than she did at Worlds? Her programs at Worlds were more refined. Yu-Na receives too much +GOE for her spins and her PCS are also too high (although, at the moment, she certainly deserves the highest PCS of any lady). She gets marks that represent masterpiece performances, when she is simply skating very good rather than OMG BEST PROGRAM EVER!!

I think you are saying beautiful people have an advantage. I would agree. But I think that is partly what figure skating is about in addition to performance. Beauty and appeal is desired by fans, featured by performers and rewarded by judges.

 

[R.D.]

I think you are saying beautiful people have an advantage. I would agree. But I think that is partly what figure skating is about in addition to performance. Beauty and appeal is desired by fans, featured by performers and rewarded by judges.

...and throws in a level of subjectivity that causes some people to question its status as a "sport".

But there are some skaters I find "beautiful" in terms of looks that I think are incredibly boring (or meh) on the ice. IMHO, beauty is not everything- it is far from it.

 

[prettykeys]

Yu-na deserved to win by a very large margin based on the way the other people skated. Look, Mao had a bad competition. Her short program was a mess with that popped combo. She also got several downgrades in her long program. Mao's total score was in the 170's which is low for Mao.

Then there is Nakano who had several jumping issues herself. It's not like Mao skated well and Kim won by 36 points. Mao lands and rotates her jumps than a lot of that 36 points is quickly erased.

I thought Kim's PCS were a bit high in the long program. However she deserved high GOE on her jumps. And so while the score was high, it was maybe only a couple of points high.

However, may I point out that Rochette got 63 Pcs at the Japan Open. I think that the judges are also willing to give other people high PCS if they skate well.

Given how Mao is skating right now. We have to see how Miki and Joannie are scoring before we assume that Kim has "no challengers". Right now unless Mao and Kostner really step it up. I think that the Olympic podium is very likely to be Kim/Miki/Joannie. Mao will have difficulty beating MIki/Rochette if she continues to skate this way.

I don't know who you are. I just joined this forum (have been around the Mao and YuNa fan forums for a while before finding out about this one.) I see that you're a YuNa fan, judging by your Lark Ascending portrait avatar...and I completely agree with everything you say!

YuNa is my favourite skater, and I started watching since the days of Kristi Yamaguchi. I have an ethnic bias to loving YuNa (we're both Korean), a national bias to her team (born in Canada!), but she's just such a rare talent both technically and artistically, and emerged from a country who had a non-existent skating history before her.

I mentioned this on her very own fan forum that I too, felt her PCS was a little high, given that her LP was tentatively skated (and understandably so, since it's her first competition with that piece), but only by about 2-3 points. The sentiment was not received very well, but I had to say this to provide perspective. Reading her scoresheet, all the judges were consistent in the way they scored her. I think there is just a mismatch between the intuitive relationship of her record score (knowing that YuNa didn't skate at her best) and the difference gap (she was not impossibly dominant).

So it is ultimately a small inflation (and yet I insist it was there), probably due to the relative lack of a strong challenge this early in the season, which made YuNa seem that much better.

I don't say this to put down YuNa's performances or her achievement. I can understand a lot of the questions people have about the scoring, though, because I had some, too. Plus, I believe YuNa is one of the first ladies who is truly thriving under this new scoring system, so we are now only beginning to see how that translates to amplifications in scores when judges agree. (It's a factored scale, not the arithmetic scale that was the old system.)

:agree:

 

[Tinymavy15]

Are you saying she was over scored in CoP or over scored if we were back in the old days? If you mean over scored today based on CoP how do you account for 9 judges making that same error? Possibly they are seeing things we cannot.

I can just imagine it now. If we were under 6.0 the judges would have to declare the introduction of 7.0 or 6.0+ to give Kim the proper winning margin.

 

[kyla2]

Scoring

I think Yu Na was overscored because the gap between her and Mao in the LP was unjustified. She missed a jump for starters. That alone should have kept her from setting a new world record. But it didn't. In the old system, complete and perfect performances mattered. Not so much now, unfortunately.

Yu Na clearly won hands down. I wouldn't argue that at all. But Mao's LP was very good (although I hated that music) and she skated it pretty well. I think the difference in scores was excessive. As I stated earlier, Yu Na does everything fairly well, but she is not the best in all aspects. The textbook form and consistency of her jumps is the only thing that sets her apart from Mao IMO. I actually like Mao's overall skating a little better.

You know, I blog on a horse racing site (I love thoroughbred horse racing) with quite a few different posters. I love it. We all have our favorite horses, etc. Most of us have a sense of humor and we are all adults. While we each have strong opinions ( we have the common sense and self-confidence not to confuse strong opinons with arrogance) and some of us are quite fiesty, we don't stoop to the level of some of the posters on this site with personal attacks. It is the primary reason I avoid this site for the most part. I feel like I am blogging with pre-schoolers, except they aren't quite as vicious.

 

[R.D.]

You know, I blog on a horse racing site (I love thoroughbred horse racing) with quite a few different posters. I love it. We all have our favorite horses, etc. Most of us have a sense of humor and we are all adults. While we each have strong opinions ( we have the common sense and self-confidence not to confuse strong opinons with arrogance) and some of us are quite fiesty, we don't stoop to the level of some of the posters on this site with personal attacks. It is the primary reason I avoid this site for the most part. I feel like I am blogging with pre-schoolers, except they aren't quite as vicious.

:chorus: apparently some people are VERY protective for their favorite skaters.

 

[silverlining]

But I see a decline in the programs across the board. Yes, they are loaded with difficulty. But because the coaches and skaters are trying to pack difficulty into the program, they are sacrificing the overall beauty and choregraphy that used to make them works of art. During the golden epoque of Michelle, skating was an art form as well as a sport. Since then, it has become a checklist of "to do items." All the programs have a definite sameness about them. Michelle, herself, was doing some of that towards the end of her career. But the vast majority of her career and Sasha's and Irina's was spent putting unique and new competitive programs before the public. it was always exciting to see what they would come up with.

As someone who has watched skating for a very long time, I see changes that worry me. I see a day when it will not be watched in the U.S. if this continues. Since I live in the U.S. and I have always loved skating, this is somewhat troubling to me. It may go the way of women's soccer and that would be a sad day indeed. Soccer is the number 1 sport in Europe, but not so here. I don't want that to happen to skating.

Kyla2, I'm sure you're a genuine fan of figure skating and a very nice person, but I highly disagree with your opinion.

Figure skating in the U.S. is in decline not because the sport has changed, but because there isn't an American star in the sport. There hasn't been a top contender since Kimmie Meisnner won the Worlds four seasons ago. And even skaters like Kimmie and Sasha haven't really lived up to the expectations of American fans.

There needs to be a next Michelle Kwan for figure skating to rivive in the U.S.

It's same with other sports as well. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm sure the TV ratings for the U.S. Open men's tennis nowadays is nowhere near when Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi were favored to win the title.

And why do you think the sponsorship for LPGA is dropping every year? It's because all the foreigners are winning tournaments every week during the season.

One of the things that Americans misunderstand about themselves is that, Americans think they're so open-minded that they can cheer for and accept any athletes regard of their nationalities as long as they're good.

But that's just not true. Americans are just as nationalistic as anybody in the world. And if there's not an American skater who has a legimate shot at winning a competition held in a city in the U.S., of course the fans are not going to show up.

As a fan of ladies figure skating for a long time myself with piles of VHS tapes of many major competitions and Olympic games that I still enjoy watching from time to time, I can safely say IMHO that the levels of both technicality and artistry have been constantly elevated throughout the years.

What America needs is a next Michelle Kwan, just like Japan needed Midori Ito, Arakawa, Ando and Asada, just like Korea needed Yu-na, just like Italy needed Kostner, just like China needed Chen Lu, etc...., for figure skating to become popular again in the U.S.

Figure skating is no exception and America is no exception. Each country needs its own star for the particular sport to prosper.
Please don't blame the sport or the athletes for compromising artistry.
At least for me, that's not true. I think the skaters today are as artistic as ever.

 

[herro]

I think Yu Na was overscored because the gap between her and Mao in the LP was unjustified. She missed a jump for starters. That alone should have kept her from setting a new world record. But it didn't. In the old system, complete and perfect performances mattered. Not so much now, unfortunately.

Sigh, I'm sorry if I come off sounding harsh, because I really don't mean any animosity and I respect your opinions. However, I really don't think Yuna was overscored, as I've stated before (when this thread was MUCH smaller ). I know she missed the flip, but remember that this is a total point system. If she had enough elements that gained enough positive GOEs there's no reason why she could gain a huge lead.

That's the point I agree with you, kyla2, when you talk about the new system. The new system makes this kind of scoring possible, while the old system didn't. Gone are the days when you need to have 6-7 perfect triples to win or medal. But that's just how it is now and I wouldn't say that Yuna's was over-scored because of that. Yuna got that score because she (and her coaching team of course) takes full advantage of the system, which every skater should be doing now. You just have to look at the protocol closely. It's easy to compare the two systems, but we really have to move on and look at things from this new system's perspective.


On another note...
I remember a lot of people thought Yuna's PCS scores were unjustified, but if you really look at her skating from an unbiased point of view, her skating is superior right now. I know a lot of people think it's boring that she's dominating the field, but she does have excellent technique and skating skills.

If anything, (I'm going to be controversial here) Mao was "under"-scored. It may seem the same as Yuna being overscored, but there is a difference. What do people think about this?

 

[prettykeys]

I think Yu Na was overscored because the gap between her and Mao in the LP was unjustified. She missed a jump for starters. That alone should have kept her from setting a new world record. But it didn't. In the old system, complete and perfect performances mattered. Not so much now, unfortunately.

You know, I blog on a horse racing site (I love thoroughbred horse racing) with quite a few different posters. I love it. We all have our favorite horses, etc. Most of us have a sense of humor and we are all adults. While we each have strong opinions ( we have the common sense and self-confidence not to confuse strong opinons with arrogance) and some of us are quite fiesty, we don't stoop to the level of some of the posters on this site with personal attacks.

I don't know if the relative gap means much...Mao did not skate her best, either. And I know what you mean about the old system, but the old system had its flaws, too. A skater could skate very well, and then the best skater would just overwhelm, but the difference would be 6.0's vs. 5.8's or 5.9's (not nearly enough to justify the difference, IMO). Not to mention the fact that whoever went before would be conservatively scored even if they did very well, so that judges could leave "enough room" in case the latter skater did better.

I think overall this new scoring system has the right concept, but maybe the point values of various elements are unbalanced. That's a debate for another thread.

btw, I love thoroughbred horses myself.

 

[prettykeys]

Also, she didn't skate better at TEB than she did at Worlds? Her programs at Worlds were more refined. Yu-Na receives too much +GOE for her spins and her PCS are also too high (although, at the moment, she certainly deserves the highest PCS of any lady). She gets marks that represent masterpiece performances, when she is simply skating very good rather than OMG BEST PROGRAM EVER!!

I sort of agree re: TEB, although I think her Danse Macabre was a definite "masterpiece"-level performance. And yes, her Sheherazade at Worlds was more refined. If YuNa had performed her 3Lutz-3Toe with it, as well as not missed her final spiral, then that performance would have scored ~139.

 

[sleepymom]

I mentioned this on her very own fan forum that I too, felt her PCS was a little high, given that her LP was tentatively skated (and understandably so, since it's her first competition with that piece), but only by about 2-3 points. The sentiment was not received very well, but I had to say this to provide perspective. Reading her scoresheet, all the judges were consistent in the way they scored her. I think there is just a mismatch between the intuitive relationship of her record score (knowing that YuNa didn't skate at her best) and the difference gap (she was not impossibly dominant).

So it is ultimately a small inflation (and yet I insist it was there), probably due to the relative lack of a strong challenge this early in the season, which made YuNa seem that much better.

I don't say this to put down YuNa's performances or her achievement. I can understand a lot of the questions people have about the scoring, though, because I had some, too. Plus, I believe YuNa is one of the first ladies who is truly thriving under this new scoring system, so we are now only beginning to see how that translates to amplifications in scores when judges agree. (It's a factored scale, not the arithmetic scale that was the old system.)

:agree:

:agree:

I think World Record is somewhat misleading in this case, because so far, other than Joannie, Yuna seems to be the only one who has team who understands the new system and adapts her program to get the most out of the system. So, while she gets better score than others in this system, that doesn't mean that this is the ceiling point-wise. In other words, I don't think we're at 9 sec in 100m yet.

PCS-wise, I think her 5 or 6 point lead over Mao is actually right, because while Mao's spending 2 minutes on preparing for 3A, Yuna's doing a lot more transition and interesting moves before and after jumps. And I don't think Mao's stumble on 2nd 3A helped either.

 

[*Sniper*]

It was just a joke.
Where's your sense of humor?
I'm sure you would feel awkward if someone asked you, "How were you able to fit into Lambiel's suitcase?"

HaHa, alright.

What I meant was, even the most casual skating fan, someone who watched figure skating for the first time in his/her life, after Yu-na's LP, could not have looked around the room and said "...so that's it?", unless he/she was expecting some kind of nudity.

Cuz it was pretty, if not beautiful, for any set of eyes.

Oh boy. That is an incredibly bold and highly subjective opinion, not a fact.
Care to back it up?
Did you take a poll?
Do you speak for the ENTIRE "casual skating fans" that watched this program?
If you do, you forgot to ask me, because I've been one of them for about 15 years.

Since when did a "storyline" become a necessity for a good skating performance, really.

Nowhere have I ever stated her program sucked because it didn't have a story.
Nor do I believe a good performance must include a character.
And have I implied anywhere that her jumps and other elements diminished in quality because it didn't have a story or because of my personal lack of understanding of the program???

BIG FAT NO.

Look.
This program has been skated only once so far, and I watched it on a tiny screen on my laptop.
I didn't exactly get the most memorable first impression as I did from her other programs in the past under the same circumstances, that is all.

I was looking forward to watching her skate again in SA and reevaluating my take on her LP with some useful pointers I gathered from this thread, but I feel kind of stupid and perverted after your post, so maybe I shouldn't bother.

And if that was "just a joke," I apologize for my "lack of humor."

 

[prettykeys]

Or she can just skip the flip altogether. after all, why bother? She already did her precious combo that places the judges in the palm of her hand. Funny she would never think of "skipping" a flip last year when she had that triple toe to do.

Oh please. I saw Yu-na's interview on NBC afterwards and she sounded upset about missing the 3flip and rather shaken by it. It was not intentional on her part. She thought she saw something on the ground and it threw off her timing.

Honestly, this is the second time I've come across someone making the ridiculous assertion that YuNa deliberately and pre-meditatedly skipped her 3flip, and it's only come from posters who are clearly prejudiced against YuNa in the first place.

YuNa was clearly gliding and setting up to do her 3flip, but stopped. When I was watching, I just thought she blanked out, and giggled a little because it looked cute. After her performance, her face looked shy and a little regretful. As it turns out, she said she "felt something on the ice" and her body trembled, so she opted not to jump.

So please, I don't want to hear anymore accusations about YuNa pre-emptively planning "cautious" performances and being "complacent". Usually when skaters do that, they are calculating what it would take them to win. YuNa pretty much had TEB in the bag.

 

[prettykeys]

:agree:

I think World Record is somewhat misleading in this case, because so far, other than Joannie, Yuna seems to be the only one who has team who understands the new system and adapts her program to get the most out of the system. So, while she gets better score than others in this system, that doesn't mean that this is the ceiling point-wise. In other words, I don't think we're at 9 sec in 100m yet.

PCS-wise, I think her 5 or 6 point lead over Mao is actually right, because while Mao's spending 2 minutes on preparing for 3A, Yuna's doing a lot more transition and interesting moves before and after jumps. And I don't think Mao's stumble on 2nd 3A helped either.

Yes, I agree with you.

And Joannie has gotten so good, so strong as a skater in the past 2-3 years!

Mao is a beautifully talented skater with certain skills in certain areas that exceed YuNa's. But her programs have not capitalized on it to maximize the scoring under the new CoP, and that's in large part due to Team Mao, not Mao herself. Which is unfortunate, because the pressure and anxiety that she's probably feeling is not helping her to do what she used to be able to do either.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

This thread is so interesting... all the different opinions and "I think" and "I don't want to hear..." in relation to the first competition of the season where the winner skated a five triple program, the silver medalist is clearly trying to work out the details of two programs that aren't clicking just yet and may switch out her expo for the short and the bronze medalist popped her shoulder out of socket a couple of weeks ago.

And quiite frankly - the early GPs are always fraught with overscoring. Its become a tradition. By February the judges will have gotten over their individual crushes and group think and calm down. The skating peaks will begin and competitors will start to emerge.

The season is early and we're well into a January tone and texture of the Olympic year on GS... Should be an interesting year for us fans and an extremely busy one for the mods...Yay! Fun for girls and boys!

 

[sleepymom]

Mao is a beautifully talented skater with certain skills in certain areas that exceed YuNa's. But her programs have not capitalized on it to maximize the scoring under the new CoP, and that's in large part due to Team Mao, not Mao herself. Which is unfortunate, because the pressure and anxiety that she's probably feeling is not helping her to do what she used to be able to do either.

And we have to remember that this is the first event, and Mao was known to be a slow starter. While the score gap might be shocking to Mao, from the event it seems that the level of preparation seems to be pretty different.

So, let's wait and see how she does in next event, which is this week! She might be successful in Russia and we see how her program would look like with good jumps.