Stojko opposes the ladies result
- Thread starter yangjie
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Oh...sorry, you misread my post...I said, "but had she..." In my eyes, I think Kim's peformance was pure perfection.
Sorry for misreading. There's just so many posts it just all blended in my head.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I guess we are in disagreement about what "disadvantage" means. The triple Axel ladies are not at a disadvantage compared to other skaters. So I guess the point is that they do not have as big an advantage as they would have if the rule were changed.
hurrah said:
Yes, it was Flattfan that I was responding to in the second half of my post.
I think the ISU sort of leans in that direction, too. Last year they passed a new rule restricting the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three. (There is no limit on other double jumps -- you can do seven double toes as your seven jumping passes if you want to, as far as I know. This is to accomodate younger skaters who cannot do triples at all.)
Anyway, the reason the ISU cut down on double Axels was just what you said -- skaters were padding their programs with double Axels in lieu of harder jumps that they couldn't do. Skaters were doing double Axel/double Axel sequence, plus two solo double Axels.
However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.
I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.
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M
mylastduchess
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Oh.. geez no problem! I didn't think anyone paid attention to my post or found them useful!Thanks for all your help and time.
I think in order to be competitive she needs a real triple lutz. She does not necessarily need a 3/3. She used to do 3f/2t/2l. I also like to see her get the 3 sal, this is not a point getter jump, but it shows the judges that she is more versatile in the jump department. She definitely can learn from Evan if you can't beat them in the air, beat them on ice. I think she has the potential to do exceedingly well even level 4s in spirals, and spins.
No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.
I think she needs a lutz, not so much for a 3-3. Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T. With all but two of the top ten doing a 3Z (many doing 2), I think Mao needs to bring that jump back first before worrying about a 3-3.
And yeah Tat is just not that great of a fit. Who is Daisuke's coach? He/she seems to being doing the right thing....despite not landing the quad, he did a great program technically and his non-jump elements just can't be beat (and I think he should've gotten the gold over Evan).
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- Aug 8, 2009
Oh, I see. Well, Yuna doesn't do two 3-3, so she's using it as a loophole then, I guess. It really is very CoP-smart.
Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.
Messing with the point system is so tricky, isn't it.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think I understand this comment. How does the CoP disallow Mao from landing triple-triples comfortably?
On the contrary, the CoP does everything it can to encourage triple-triples by Mao and everyone else.
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- Aug 8, 2009
Regarding my post about Tat, I just think there's a political aspect to how some 3-3's are ratified and some aren't or how GOEs are catered out, that's all. But I do really think that Tat has choreographed some great programs for Mao, not Bells so much but the other three have been lovely.
What do you mean? Rachael Flatt is always in the top 10, it is expected that she has a single element in the top 10 point getter. Your point would only be valid if Rachael skated to a last place finish in Colorado, but still managed a top 10 point getter with a 3Z-2T.
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- Aug 8, 2009
Maybe I should not have put 'CoP' as the subject. It's just that what can be deemed an under-rotated jump seems so varied.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Again, this discussion is not about Yu-na Kim, right? We are talking about possible rules changes that will affect all skaters equally.
The reason that I do not think a change is necessary is this. Every skater is allowed one three jump combination. You can do 3Lz/3T/3Lo (like Kevin Van der Perren.) You can do 4T/3T/2Lo like Plushenko. You can do 3F/3T/2Lo -- that would be a big point getter for a lady. You can do 3Lo/2?lo/2Lo (I think both Mao and Slutskaya have done this in the past.) You can do 2A/2T/2T if you are willing to settle for fewer points. You can do 2Lz+2T+2T -- an excellent choice if you do not have a full complement of triples and if your double Axel is unreliable as well.
Each skater choses the combination that best suits his/her program. I guess in a way you could call it "padding." As in, Plushenko padded his point total at Russian nationals by doing 4T/3T/2Lo. He would have padded it even more if he had done 4T/3T/3Lo.
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Not necessarily. Actually Elene Graborova, who finished 21st, was in the top 10 with her 3T-3T (it's just the rest of her program was not so good). And Miki Ando, despite being 5th, actually didn't make it in the the top 10 for single elements.
Rachael got a a good bonus for her 3Z-2T because of the 10 percent 2nd half bonus and some GOE. The point was that Mao could easily tick off some major points by simply adding a lutz to her arsenel.
Problem is that TAT is in Russia and won't come to Japan and Mao won't move to Russia. So the partnership won't work until one or the other agrees to move so they can spend more time working together.
Why is it okay for Mao to do a double axel instead of a 3lutz or a 3sal, but its somehow wrong for Yu-na to do a double axel instead of a 3loop? As for the rest of Yu-na's double axels, one of her double axels is a freakin requirement (Mao fulfills the requirement with a 3axel). And the third is a reward for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe. In fact now a lot of the women are doing combinations like Mirai's 3loop seq double axel, in order to ensure that they can fit in more double axels.
If Mao wanted she could easily do instead of her second 3flip/2loop she could just do the 3flip seperately and then she could do what Joannie Rochette normally tries to do double axel double axel sequence. To pick up more points.
Currently the ability to fit in extra double axels is the only reward in the system for doing harder combinations. All of the women except for Mao it seems are trying to fit in as many double axels as possible (Mirai I believe did 3 double axels as well) As for the double axel/2toe/2tano, Mao did at one point a double axel/2toe/2loop herself (If I recall correctly). Until this season Yu-na always did 3lutz/2toe/2loop but now that she's doing the 3lutz/3toe, there's no real rhyme or reason to do the 3lutz/2toe/2loop as well, especially since the base value is the same if she does the 2axel/2toe/2tano.
If they want to get rid of the double axel rule, they will have to find another way to reward hard combinations. That will hardly hurt Yu-na.
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- Aug 8, 2009
I would not find it okay if Mao were doing double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal. But I think she is replacing what might normally be a 3lutz or 3sal with 3axel.
What other ways could there be to reward hard combinations? I guess just give more points for them? I think this would be fair. I definitely think 3lutz-3toe can be awarded more. However, before awarding 3lutz-3toe, 3axel-2toe would have to be increased in value because it should be valued higher than 3l-3t. If I were to consider this process of change as someone who has Yuna's interest at heart, I would want to avoid opening up this debate.
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lol, but i kond of agree. Elvis and yagudin are among my favorite men. Exciting, masculine, the big jumps, great footwork. Lysaceks program was not as exciting without the quad tri[les we became used to seeing. Time to tweak the CoP, methinks. Plush just did not have it that night. I think MAO in undrscored and it was much harder to do technically two triple axels. Most everyone agrees YUNA was overscored on many elements-rediculous coronation. Oh well, that's figureskating. BTW I loved Laura Lepisto and Kira. When I want to see really beautiful skating, I look to ladies of the past, though Mirai gave me hope with that LP skate.
YUNA's LP was nice but I think her best thing is her speed into that great 3/3. I don't find her moving or compelling or emotional. I think Chen Lu should be her next coach. I'd love to see what Kat Witt would do with her if only she coached elites. Brian has done a good job but he needs to push her now on quality...I think he's too enamored of her celebrity/hype to really polish and push her basic skating skills.
Figures again, anyone???? Guess I'll go watch Witt videos, lol... (old fart purist speaks up......)
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- Jan 15, 2006
I've got to say I agree with Stojko this time. I thought Asada should have gotten the ladies gold. I was mad when he dissed my boy Evan, but Kim was overscored. She's the new Michelle. No woman has ever done three triple axels in a competition before! Kim didn't even try one.
