Yuna Kim

[OS]

To be sure, some choreographers and some skaters still produce watchable programs despite the CoP. But you can't say, I like the CoP but I didn't like Miki Ando's performance. Ando's skate is what the CoP defines as a world championship program.

That is such rubbish sorry to say. You are basically saying you are perfectly fine with an imperfect system that can be abused and exploited. Just like with any exams can theoretically be cracked once you learn the tricks, but at the end the day, the student learn nothing and bring nothing. You are missing the point of having the exam in the first place.

The reality is, it is those who specialises and unafraid to experiment pushes the boundaries of possibilities and make life far more richer and interesting; in sport, in art in everything.

 

[Mathman]

^ Especially when its corollary, "I don't like the CoP, but I liked Ando's performance" is being employed.

I like the CoP OK, it's just not my all-time favorite judging system.

I liked Miki Ando's performance OK. It wasn't my all-time favorite figure skating performance, but I thought she skated with energy, grace and poise, she landed a lot of jumps with good flow and glide, she made only one small mistake, and no one else in the field did any better. (JMO).

 

[doubleflutz]

Let me be more specific in my remark about Ando. I think it would be odd to say, "I like the fact that the CoP encourages skaters to backload their jumps. But I don't like the fact that Ando backloaded her jumps."

Uh, sure you can. Try this on for size: "I like that the COP adequately rewards skaters who spread their jumps out instead of front-loading, or do very difficult jumps late in a program. On the technical side, it still needs some tuning, because a flat 10% bonus is to easy to abuse, and you end up with skaters building programs with enormous rest breaks and being over-rewarded for easy jumps that they do when they're not even all that tired, but it's better than skaters going unrewarded completely, or being subject to the arbitrary whims of the judges, the way it was a complete fudge factor under 6.0. It can be done well, in a way that matches the music seamlessly; or it can be done poorly and obviously, like in Miki's program."

 

[Mathman]

You are basically saying you are perfectly fine with an imperfect system that can be abused and exploited.

I am?

If by the imperfect system that can be abused and exploited you mean the CoP, then no, I am not perfectly fine with it.

 

[chloepoco]

I like the CoP OK, it's just not my all-time favorite judging system.

I liked Miki Ando's performance OK. It wasn't my all-time favorite figure skating performance, but I thought she skated with energy, grace and poise, she landed a lot of jumps with good flow and glide, she made only one small mistake, and no one else in the field did any better. (JMO).

Gee, Mathman, maybe you and I are the only ones that liked Miki's program?! I thought it was beautifully done.

 

[doubleflutz]

Gee, Mathman, maybe you and I are the only ones that liked Miki's program?! I thought it was beautifully done.

I liked it a lot too, but I thought it could use a whole lot of tweaking, especially in how the jumps were used. It didn't really build that well, the music just gave it the illusion. Miki's never been very good at using her jumps as musical highlights, somehow, which is a shame because they're her big strength. Morozov's choreography almost always uses a step sequence as the highlight of the program that ties it together, and that does not always put Miki in the best light. Since this is a Yuna thread, it's probably worth pointing out that David Wilson is very good at this, and that when Yuna's jumping well, that's a very big part of her artistic impact. Miki's a wonderful jumper, but her jumps are almost always just kind of... there.

 

[silverlake22]

Yuna would get more GOE on 2a-3t than she does for her 3s-2t, and she could put that combo in the 2nd half to receive a bonus like she has done for the past few seasons. I know she might think doing a planned 2lz is stupid, but to me, that seems like her best option if she doesn't want to do a 3lo. Also, she could put two combos in the back half of her program (2a-2t-2lo and 2a-3t) and that would also help boost her BV.

I don't think Miki's FS at worlds was great, but she deserved to win because Yuna popped her flip and singled the 2nd half of her salchow combo, which together were much more costly than Miki's doubling and stepping out of the 2nd half of her first 2a combo. When Miki skated the program totally clean though, like at Japanse Nats and 4CC, I thought it was stunning, and had no problem that such a program scored so well and won those events. Again I just think I'm a little disappointed that these days, it's common for the ladies world champion wins with a 5 triple FS. If it's 6 triples and you do a 3-3 like Yuna does, or do a 2a-3t and 2a-2lo-2lo along with 3 other solo triples in the backhalf like Miki does, then it's pretty impressive, but idk, 5 triples isn't so much. The fact that you can medal at Worlds with 3 triples like Lepisto did last season, or with 5 triples but only 1 3f and no 3lz like Carolina did this season, is a little upsetting. But what can you do.

 

[Mathman]

...it still needs some tuning,...

That is my fear. That every year there will be some more fine tuning. Every year skaters will huddle with their coaches to see how to squeeze an extra half-point out of the most recent fine tuning. (Rememebr when the CoP said "put a Biellmann postition in every spin and spiral?")

Last year the CoP says, Yu-na, do a triple Lutz-triple toe and a 2A+3T and you will win by 20 points. This year they say, Yu-na, you won by too much, don't do a 2A+3T.

This year they say, Miki, put all your jumps in the last half. Next year they will say, no, here's the new rule, at least three jumps must be in the first half.

IMHO it is not the fine tuning, it is the gross concept that is the problem. The skaters will do whatever the point structure dictates. Give an extra tenth of a point for sticking your skate in your ear, and every skater will be sticking her skate in her ear next season.

 

[doubleflutz]

I don't think Miki's FS at worlds was great, but she deserved to win because Yuna popped her flip and singled the 2nd half of her salchow combo, which together were much more costly than Miki's doubling and stepping out of the 2nd half of her first 2a combo. When Miki skated the program totally clean though, like at Japanse Nats and 4CC, I thought it was stunning, and had no problem that such a program scored so well and won those events. Again I just think I'm a little disappointed that these days, it's common for the ladies world champion wins with a 5 triple FS. If it's 6 triples and you do a 3-3 like Yuna does, or do a 2a-3t and 2a-2lo-2lo along with 3 other solo triples in the backhalf like Miki does, then it's pretty impressive, but idk, 5 triples isn't so much. The fact that you can medal at Worlds with 3 triples like Lepisto did last season, or with 5 triples but only 1 3f and no 3lz like Carolina did this season, is a little upsetting. But what can you do.

It's not like we've had a really long stretch where lots and lots of top ladies were capable of managing all five triples (if we are very strict about lips and flutzes) and a 3-3. People seem to be assuming that an ideal, that's really only existed in a handful of the top ladies in the past two decades, is something that's easily attainable. I was annoyed that Lepisto medaled at Worlds with 3 triples because I don't think she deserved to beat Miki. Frankly, I don't think Carolina deserved to beat Alena, or Ksenia, because the rule that lost it for her was stupid. But even if you ignore 3-3s and the 3A, there are really not a lot of women who're consistent with all five triples and have no technique flaws on any of them, and there never really have been. The overlap between figures being a major part of competition, and women being expected to do the high-level triples in competition, was just too small. By the time you had to have a lutz and a flip to be in contention, no one trained figures and even egregious flutzes were completely ignored.

Edit: I guess I should clarify - I wouldn't necessarily mind if someone medalled at Worlds with only three triples, as long as she really deserved it. I just don't think Laura and Caro did, but Ladies being the discipline it is, I really don't think it's out of the question that it could happen.

 

[doubleflutz]

That is my fear. That every year there will be some more fine tuning. Every year skaters will huddle with their coaches to see how to squeeze an extra half-point out of the most recent fine tuning. (Rememebr when the CoP said "put a Biellmann postition in every spin and spiral?")

Last year the CoP says, Yu-na, do a triple Lutz-triple toe and a 2A+3T and you will win by 20 points. This year they say, Yu-na, you won by too much, don't do a 2A+3T.

No, they're saying "If the 2A continues to be worth as much as a triple, it needs to be subject to the same rules as a triple. Yuna, if you want to score in the same range as a lady with five different triples, you need to have five different triples, instead of the 3.5 you currently have."

 

[Mathman]

No, they're saying "If the 2A continues to be worth as much as a triple, it needs to be subject to the same rules as a triple.

Almost. It is still exempted from the "repeating only two different 'triples'" rule.

Maybe next year...

 

[Krislite]

Almost. It is still exempted from the "repeating only two different 'triples'" rule.

Maybe next year...

But the double Axel is emphatically not a triple and not worth as much as a triple. If you're going to subject the double Axel to the complete Zayak rule, why not the other doubles, too? Just because it's worth more points?

 

[doubleflutz]

Almost. It is still exempted from the "repeating only two different 'triples'" rule.

Maybe next year...

I think it's a reasonable compromise, given that it's still the lowest-rated triple, and every lady is required to be able to do one, because of the requirement in the SP, and it's the only axel-takeoff that most ladies will ever manage. For the sake of well-roundedness, I'd like to keep seeing 2As in long programs, even if we start seeing ladies who have both loop and toe loop 3-3s and all the female triples. Like I said earlier, I think the real solution is that 3T and 3LO need to be exempted from the Zayak rule when done as the second or third jumps in combinations, or in a sequence (although the sequence rules need cleaning up, too). Almost no one was doing 3-3s when the rule was implemented, not even the men, and I don't think anyone anticipated what would eventually happen with jumping. 3A hadn't even become a defacto requirement for the men, really. Especially since COP puts a strong emphasis on combination jumps, I think it just makes sense.

I think the 6.0 tech mark and COP TES are both attempts at the same ideal: reward skilled, well-rounded skating in an even-handed way that's as close to objective as possible. I think COP, on the whole, does a much better job of that. Remember when Midori Ito came in, like, fifth or something at the LP in Calgary? Eff that noise. I think you're probably a little bit blinded by how well your favorite did under 6.0. The system had it's merits, and they really worked to make Michelle into the skater she became, but over all, 6.0 is responsible for a lot more horribleness than COP.

 

[sson4won]

Could you please make other thread? I want some real Yuna news, and get tired with the whole jump slot discussion or whatever.
I don't want to complain but how many pages without "yuna news"?

 

[janetfan]

And to me, a less compelling one.

The whole idea of the CoP was to make figure skating more like other sports. Phooey on that. If we want sports that are like other sports, we have other sports that are exactly like other sports. Why do we need figure skating?

Figure skating is different from other sports. Viva la difference! IMHO this difference came to the fore under the type of programs and performances that were encouraged by the ordinal judging system.

To be sure, some choreographers and some skaters still produce watchable programs despite the CoP. But you can't say, I like the CoP but I didn't like Miki Ando's performance. Ando's skate is what the CoP defines as a world championship program.

A very good post even if it is poorly received by the CoP devotees.

Miki is a truly great CoP skater and has won more world championships than Yuna.

Olympic champion Evan Lysacek is another great CoP skater.

Those not happy with the current rules need not worry as they will be changed again for next season and most likely for every season.

Under the CoP being able to adapt to never ending rule changes is very important.
The skating itself has become secondary to the rules and the abilty to change with them from season to season.

 

[jaylee]

No, they're saying "If the 2A continues to be worth as much as a triple, it needs to be subject to the same rules as a triple. Yuna, if you want to score in the same range as a lady with five different triples, you need to have five different triples, instead of the 3.5 you currently have."

Ah, but the 2A is not as worth as much as a triple. They decided to limit to two times instead of three, like other triples. Okay. But they also reduced the base value and reduced the GOE scale of values. If it's worth as much as a triple that it shouldn't be repeated more than twice, then there was no additional need to reduce the base value and reduce the GOE. Reducing the base value and the GOE in itself would have served as natural incentive not to repeat the double axel more than once or twice, just as the low base value and GOE of double toes/double loops are supposed to serve as natural incentive for skaters to attempt harder jumps without an absolute limitation on how many they can attempt.

The tearing down of Yu-Na in this thread is getting out of control. Amazing that one can have 3.5 triples and become Olympic champion.

 

[jaylee]

Michelle Kwan would have been greatly pleased if she had been able to add a difficult triple-triple to her repertoire. She lost the 1998 Olympics to Tara Lipinski's 3Lo+3Lo. In preparation for the 2002 Olympics, knowing she would have to face Irina Slutskaya, Michelle tried to learn a 3F+3T. She attempted in at Skate Canada and fell.

It was a triple lutz/triple loop attempt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho3aUKYMc_g

I don't recall that her decision to train the 3Lz/3Lo was in preparation for facing Irina Slutskaya at the Olympics. That sounds like a bit of fluffy fan historical revisionism, in order to credit Michelle for taking the initiative to challenge herself and match Irina's jump difficulty. Again, I'm a Michelle fan, but that's not how I remember it happening. Watch the video and you'll hear Terry Gannon's comments which reference the criticisms that were surrounding Michelle's skating at that time, post Skate America, and which factored in to why she attempted the ill-fated 3Lz/3Lo.

I thought she attempted it at Skate Canada in response to the enormous amount of criticism (which disgusted me at the time, btw) for her win at 2001 Skate America and the oft-repeated criticism that she was playing it safe while her peers (Sarah Hughes, Irina Slutskaya) attempted more difficult jump combinations. It was like the criticism that hailed down on Michelle at 2000 Nationals for going for the easier toeloop instead of the flip in the short program, which she fell on, and then that resulted in her going for the flip in the SP at 2000 Worlds. (Michelle omitted the flip with the toeloop in the SP from 1998 Olympics - 2000 Nationals.)

Both times, Michelle's decision to attempt more difficult elements appeared to stem from public pressure. At times like this throughout her career, since she was the top US lady and a leader in ladies figure skating, Michelle was treated like a pinata that everyone piled on, focusing on her weaknesses (the lack of a difficult or consistent 3/3) instead of crediting her for her unique strengths.

Now it seems like Yu-Na is being the pinata in this thread. Since Yu-Na is the Olympic champion, still competing, still on the podium even after a year off, people are harping on her weaknesses (the absence of a triple loop) and not properly crediting her for her unique strengths (her 3/3, among others).

However, there's a big difference in the criticism that Michelle received then and the criticism that Yu-Na is receiving now. Michelle was criticized for not doing things that her peers, who were on the podium with her, were doing--a flip in the SP, a more difficult 3/3 (or doing more than one 3/3). Yu-Na is being criticized for not doing something that her peers on the podium, are also not doing--she omits the loop, Kostner omitted the lutz, Ando omitted the flip. And another big difference--Yu-Na still had the most difficult jump combination at Worlds 2011 that no one else was doing.

No skater is perfect. No one has Midori's jumps, Sasha's spins, Michelle's connection with the audience, etc. Yu-Na's ability in each area though...well, I think it's pretty darn good, to say the least. Enough to get her well-deserved wins at the Olympics, Worlds, GPF, etc. But I wouldn't have gotten that impression from reading the last few pages of posts that have nothing to do with Yu-Na news.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Mathman, can you imagine a system perfect the first time out? If you can, my goodness man, why haven't you created it yet. If not, than why criticize attempts to fix it unless you think those attempts were incorrect.

 

[janetfan]

Mathman, can you imagine a system perfect the first time out? If you can, my goodness man, why haven't you created it yet. If not, than why criticize attempts to fix it unless you think those attempts were incorrect.

Was it really the "first time out" ?

I agree with you that it was far from perfect

 

[dorispulaski]

Is there any new news in Yu Na's life just now?

If so, I'd love to hear it.

Also, soon there will be the changes to COP that always follows worlds, and then it will be interesting to discuss how those new rules will affect Yu Na, but last year's rules are like last weeks soup.