U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

[Mathman]

^ Actually, that made me wonder if the USFSA actually has a Disciplinary Committee.

Not exactly. The closest they have is an Ethics Committee. Athlete representatives on the USFSA Ethics Committee are Derek Trent, Derrick Delmore, Ryan Jahnke, Steve Hartsell, and Braden Overett. Their email addresses are public, if you want to write to them.

Here is the mission statement of the USFSA Ethics Committee:

.

Sports are based on the premise that participants strive to do their best to win under an established set of rules. The participant who turns in the best performance under established criteria is the athlete who should "win." Ethics and ethical codes are at their heart about the fairness, honesty and integrity of competition. They say what is allowed and what is not allowed.

The ethics of sport are also about the human value of the athletes, coaches and officials. They are about respect and integrity. They are about keeping the focus on the athlete and on the ice and not on personalities and side issues. Ethical rules do not produce good sportsmanship, that comes from the character of the skaters, coaches, officials and parents. The ethical rules are a reminder of the minimum that is expected of people in figure skating and set a floor for behavior. Conduct below the floor is harmful to the sport and to the development of athletes.

So there you go. (I wasn't able to find a description of penalties for various violations.)

 

[pista04]

Now that's just silly, pista.

And I definitely agree....but feds like the Japanese Skating Federation have stipulations about winning (and placing?) at the GPF in regards to there team selection, and every year there is talk of not immediately taking the top finishers at nationals, and instead using things like the GP or a point system to decide a team for Worlds. That's all that got me thinking. I do agree, however, that it would be harsh and unfair. However, whether or not she would feel guilty, I'd say if it were me I would definitely at least think about it. Fortunately it is not an Olympic year, so the repercussions were not that strong.

 

[Serious Business]

Again, people seem to be missing the point that this is unprecedented in USFS history. No skater has been reprimanded, much less fined by the USFS for failing to report an injury before a competition, despite many examples of such. John Baldwin admitted to doing that in his interview, you think the USFS is going to reprimand him and Rena now? Do people actually think the USFS are going to enforce every last part of the contract they have with skaters starting now? That would not be expedient for either the USFS or the skaters.

No, something else is motivating this reprimand. Some have suggested conspiracy theories, or deep dissatisfaction with the Worlds results. I say let's look at the obvious. Frank Carroll, in one of his many grouchy rants to journalist Phil Hersh, expressed displeasure at the situation and noted a minor clause in the contract that the USFS could hang Rachael with. Hersh then began hounding the USFS. An organization, pressured by a crusading pundit, gives in and punishes someone relatively powerless? It's an old story in this media age. Just ask Shirley Sherrod. The chain of events, completely known. The results, predictable. Still, shame on the USFS for not sticking by one of their athletes against Hersh.

 

[Mathman]

Everyone ends up looking bad here.

Frank Carroll comes off bitter and spiteful. The USFSA looks wimpy both in not standing up to what in any case is a pretty mild wind blowing from Hersh (what could Hersh do to the USFSA, anyway? ) and also in coming down on the “figure skating is not a real sport” side of the divide.

Hersh – well, it’s his job to stir up a story, so I can’t really put him in the category of Andrew Breitbart.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I think this was absolutely the right decision and I hope Tom Z gets worse. Rachael should have reported her injury to the Federation and her coach should have known better.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Isn't the reprimand for the failure to report the injury and not competing with the injury itself? Nearly all skaters compete with injury at one point or another. In this case, some "prominent coach" raised the issue and there's also a sense of injustice over the loss of the third spot. Never mind that the star pupil of this "prominent coach" also lost the third spot for Team USA in the previous World Championship.

The 'star pupil' of this 'prominent coach' placed 7th at last year's Worlds-AHEAD of Tom Z's student. If Tom Z's student had a higher placement along with the 'star pupil' in this case 6th, they would have the combined 13 necessary to earn the U.S. those 3 spots. She did not 'lose' those 3 spots for Team USA. She didn't have help from her lower ranking teammate who has ranked lower than the 'star pupil' at every one of their senior international meets.

 

[Krislite]

The 'star pupil' of this 'prominent coach' placed 7th at last year's Worlds-AHEAD of Tom Z's student. If Tom Z's student had a higher placement along with the 'star pupil' in this case 6th, they would have the combined 13 necessary to earn the U.S. those 3 spots. She did not 'lose' those 3 spots for Team USA. She didn't have help from her lower ranking teammate who has ranked lower than the 'star pupil' at every one of their senior international meets.

Then one can equally argue that it was Alissa who lost the 3rd spot this year because she didn't place high enough to compensate for Rachael's catastrophe.

How can you blame Rachael for last year's lost of the 3rd spot? She did almost as best as she could have been expected to, while Mirai threw away an easy World medal. She was way in the lead after the short program, but she couldn't even hold it together just enough for a bronze.

I feel weird defending Rachael because I'm not even a fan of hers, and I certainly prefer Mirai's skating, but I think she's getting an undeserved amount of public flogging.

 

[NMURA]

However, I can't think of any examples of the USFSA ever "playing the game."

In my context, "playing the game" means applying factors/variables highly skewed from international standards. For example, Bradley's score at US nationals was totally unimaginable at international competitions, while Abbott could score about the same. In this case, Bradley was "favored" over Abbott. Not only the gifted PCS, Bradley's 2nd 4T was underotated but overlooked somehow.

Yes, the judges are commonly biased and sometimes blatantly unfair, but that's the nature of this sport. Quadless Abbott with 2 errors would place higher than clean Bradley with 3 quads internationally. They favored Bradley because he's good at appealing to the American public, and they could afford to waste a spot.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Then one can equally argue that it was Alissa who lost the 3rd spot this year because she didn't place high enough to compensate for Rachael's catastrophe.

How can you blame Rachael for last year's lost of the 3rd spot? She did almost as best as she could have been expected to, while Mirai threw away an easy World medal. She was way in the lead after the short program, but she couldn't even hold it together just enough for a bronze.

I feel weird defending Rachael because I'm not even a fan of hers, and I certainly prefer Mirai's skating, but I think she's getting an undeserved amount of public flogging.

I disagree. Alissa did her part and even with the lutz there's no guarantee she would have been on the podium. Rachael's catastrophe is on Rachael for skating with such a serious injury that she learned about apparently a week before the event. She was reprimanded and fined and she deserved it for breaking a rule (not reporting the injury). So does Tom Z.

Roll eyes all you want-this is on Rachael and Tom. Alissa and Mirai had nothing to do with it, neither did Frank Carroll, nor Hersh for that matter.

How could you blame Mirai for losing that 3rd spot? She didn't do it by herself. Rachael was there too remember?

 

[demarinis5]

I think this was absolutely the right decision and I hope Tom Z gets worse. Rachael should have reported her injury to the Federation and her coach should have known better.

I agree. I will take it one step further Rachael IMO should have withdrawn from Worlds when she was diagnosed with a serious injury 1 week before Worlds,
in hindsight it would have been a better decision for Rachael and her team if she had done that. That said, I like Rachael always have and will be rooting for her in the upcoming season,
but that does not change my opinion.

As far as fairness goes regarding the USFS they sent the US team to Worlds according to National results. A policy that has been in place for years and which many folks agree with.
They could have sent Jeremy but did not because it would not have been fair. Rachael should have reported her injury, she and her team were not playing fair and the USFS took action.
And on that note I am outta here.

Off Topic: The Bruins Parade in Boston was awesome yesterday!!!!

 

[Mathman]

In my context, "playing the game" means applying factors/variables highly skewed from international standards.

It is my impression that the USFSA goes out of its way to run its own program according to its own principles and is not too much interested in "intternational standards"

At U.S. Nationals, where the berths to Worlds are decided, the duty of the U.S. judges is to judge as fairly and as impartially as possible. Not to say to themselves, "well, some other judge from some other land might call it this way, so I guess I should, too."

Maybe they do not always achieve that level of independence and integrity, but that is the goal -- in my opinion an admirable one. As far as I can tell from their actions, the USFSA does not say to itself, "The international judges liked this skater better than that one. Therefore we will give this skater a higher score at Nationals, hoping to reap international rewards."

The national federations of other countries see things differently (and in fact, make fun of the political naivity of the USFSA in ISU matters). Well, that's OK, too.

 

[clairecloutier]

yes but figure skating is a individual sport and unlike gymnastics they dont have a team event (so far!) so that one´s victory is everybody ´s victory. They fight to win alone. Besides maybe she would also be happy if in 2002 Irina got the gold medal who wa sher friend, instead of a second 16 year old from her team again!

Actually, figure skating does have a team event now, starting in Sochi 2014. And according to Cinquanta this team event may be added to Worlds eventually too (I hope it is).

I think this new team event may eventually have a big effect on skating. Figure skating has traditionally been an individual sport, and that has its pluses and minuses. The upside is that skating fans usually are internationalists, in a sense, supporting whomever they feel is the best skater, regardless of nationality, which is great. It's wonderful to appreciate great sportsmen and women regardless of nationality. The downside however can be an overemphasis on the individual's objectives as opposed to their country's or federation's, and you could argue that Flatt's decision to compete at Worlds despite the injury exemplifies this.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It is my impression that the USFSA goes out of its way to run its own program according to its own principles and is not too much interested in "intternational standards"

At U.S. Nationals, where the berths to Worlds are decided, the duty of the U.S. judges is to judge as fairly and as impartially as possible. Not to say to themselves, "well, some other judge from some other land might call it this way, so I guess I should, too."

The ultimate independence would be to ignore the World Championships all together or at least not care about the placements and eligeble spots. It's hypocritical to disregard the international standard and expect good Worlds results and to have high number of entries according to the ISU rules. If your national beauty standard is fat and short while the Miss World standard is thin and tall, you may have domestic beauty contests and beauty queens any way you want but when it comes time to pick and send the Miss World contestant, you may pick a thin and tall representative, or not send a contestant, or make a statement by sending a beauty by your national standard, but you can't send someone fat and short and expect her to come back with the crown and have your country proclaimed a land of beauties.

Maybe they do not always achieve that level of independence and integrity, but that is the goal -- in my opinion an admirable one. As far as I can tell from their actions, the USFSA does not say to itself, "The international judges liked this skater better than that one. Therefore we will give this skater a higher score at Nationals, hoping to reap international rewards."

The national federations of other countries see things differently (and in fact, make fun of the political naivity of the USFSA in ISU matters). Well, that's OK, too.

These are unsubstantiated premises no more than disappointed fans' frequent charges when their favorites don't win which become assumptions which become facts to many. International judging goes by the IJS within an arguable and acceptable range, so it is more like the international judges favor some skating over others rather than some skaters over other skaters. When a so called favorite skater doesn't give the judges a chance to score him/her highly, they can't save him/her or grant high numble of entries to the federation s/he represents. There are always surprises at each competition which is why fans speculatate, with different predictions. That's why there are actual competitions. Performances on specific ice on specific days count. E.g. Jeremy Abbott is assumed to be more favored by international judges among the American skaters but his interantional results have been quite uneven.

I've agreed with most of your opinions on this subject, Mathman. Sorry, I am posting at my convenient time which happens to be when I disagree with your latest. hwell:

 

[Mathman]

The ultimate independence would be to ignore the World Championships all together or at least not care about the placements and eligeble spots. It's hypocritical to disregard the international standard and expect good Worlds results and to have high number of entries according to the ISU rules. If your national beauty standard is fat and short while the Miss World standard is thin and tall, you may have domestic beauty contests and beauty queens any way you want but when it comes time to pick and send the Miss World contestant, you may pick a thin and tall representative, or not send a contestant, or make a statement by sending a beauty by your national standard, but you can't send someone fat and short and expect her to come back with the crown and have your country proclaimed a land of beauties.

All quite true.

These are unsubstantiated premises...

If you are referring specifically to the fact that skating insiders in other countries have made fun of the political naivite of the U.S. skating establishment, no, that is well documentted in poblic utterance.

But what I was really objecting to was this idea, apparently espoused by many.

(a) The international judges tend not to give Rachael Flatt high program component scores.

(b) I am a judge at 2011 U.S. Nationals. Alissa skates beautifully. Rachael skates OK. Mirai isn't herself and falls off the pace.

Should I take fact (a) into account when I punch in my scores?

 

[Violet Bliss]

All quite true.

I guess my position is that it it not so terribly important to me whether or not my country is proclaimed as a land of beauties.

Perhaps not you, but many are unhappy about the number of American entries for next Worlds.

If you are referring specifically to the fact that skating insiders in other countries have made fun of the political naivite of the U.S. skating establishment, no, that is well documentted in poblic utterance.

I would like to see these.

But what I was really objecting to was this idea, apparently espoused by many.

(a) The international judges tend not to give Rachael Flatt high program component scores.

(b) I am a judge at 2011 U.S. Nationals. Alissa skates beautifully. Rachael skates OK. Mirai isn't herself and falls off the pace.

Should I take fact (a) into account when I punch in my scores?

No. As a judge, you study and apply the judging rules the best you can. You judge and uphold the judging standard, you don't select. it's the selection criteria and committee that should be re-evaluated and examined if the Worlds results and subsequent number of entries earned are of concern to the federation and are not satisfactory when there is a deep field of talents. Of course, never mind if the federation doesn't give a hoot to such consequences.

eta. In this particular competition which also served as the selection of Worlds team, the Men's judging was much more questionable than the Ladies'.

 

[Mathman]

I would like to see these.

Google is your friend.

Here is an interview with Irina Rodnina, as one example among many.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/70007

Yes, unfortunately. Many do it [lobby for their skaters], even those who don't want to do it, because they have to. After Nagano Olympics Tatiana Anatolievna Tarasova came to our town to choreograph an exhibition number for Klimova/Ponomarenko. She came to Frank Carrol who coached Michelle Kwan then and sincerely told him, "Why didn't you talk to us? You would've given a bottle of vodka and everything would've been fine. Russian judge doesn't care which American, Kwan or Lipinski, to put first!"…

Frank couldn't say anything to that cynicism. He didn't understand: is it really that because of bottle of vodka his (or other coach's job) will not bring results? That's why I am against this reality…

(Interviewer) There is no underground movement in American skating, no special state interests, no wishes of the management?

(Rodnina) That's the thing, there isn't. US Sport officers don't work on planning and perspectives. They treat everyone the same - the mentors of the champions and the beginners-coaches. What happens tomorrow will happen only tomorrow. We, in Russia, want to make our tomorrow today…

Of course, never mind if the federation doesn't give a hoot to such consequences.

They give a hoot, but I believe that it is only their second priority, not their first. Their first is an even playing field and a fair competition.

The prize that is up for grabs is the opportunity to compete for the world championship. Every U.S. skater has a right to compete for this prize on an equal footing with every other. It should not be doled out by back-room negotiations.

The emphasis should be on the skaters, not on the officials of the federation. Places on the world team are rewards to be earned by the skaters, not favors to be given out by the Federation.

 

[janetfan]

Google is your friend.

Here is an interview with Irina Rodnina, as one example among many.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/70007

A good old story from the PAST that many younger posters here are unfamiliar with.

Frank Carroll once commented, "cheating to these people (meaning certain Euros) is like breathing, and they laugh at our indignation over a lack of fair play.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, the interview goes to give the example of Slutskaya. Rodina mentions that she can fall down three times and still be placed over skaters with a lesser reputation because the Russian Federation was pushing her as their best shot at international medals.

A good old story from the PAST...

The most interesting thing to me about this whole discussion is whether or not there is a sea change in the air at USFSA headquarters.

In our ongoing discussion of the mission of the international committee, you have emphasied the first part of their statement (win medals) and my view was that historically the USFSA paid more attention to the second part (by developing young skaters).

I wonder if hard times has the USFSA thinking about swimming with the skarks after all.

 

[janetfan]

By the way, the interview goes to give the example of Slutskaya. Rodina mentions that she can fall down three times and still be placed over skaters with a lesser reputation because the Russian Federation was pushing her as their best shot at international medals.



The most interesting thing to me about this whole discussion is whether or not there is a sea change in the air at USFSA headquarters.

In our ongoing discussion of the mission of the international committee, you have emphasied the first part of their statement (win medals) and my view was that historically the USFSA paid more attention to the second part (by developing young skaters).

I wonder if hard times has the USFSA thinking about swimming with the skarks after all.

For me, the proper answer from you would have been "you are right about the goals of the Intl Committee......but US Skating is very big with many committees that have different responsibilties. You and gkelly are right when you say PART of US Skating's mission is to oversee adult skating, novice skating, etc.

I would have to see the mission statement from the Intl Committee re-worded to ever agree with your POV regarding Intl evnts.

Something to consider: USA has won 14 OGMs in singles skating.

Canada has won one.

The Soviet/Russians have won 6.

Japan has won a total of one.

China has never even won a silver in singles.

I have to agree (a rare occassion) with skatefiguring about US Skating being out of touch to an extent with Intl standards.

Ryan and Rachael have NO chance of ever wining Inlt medals simply because they skate so slowly and have such lacklustre skating skills.

Mirai skates circles around Rachael and ONLY in USA is Rachael considered a TOP skater.

I think you may be onto something here as a faction of US Skating (the non Bradley-Flatt supporters) might be frustrated with the atttitude of the judges/TECH -panel at US Natls.

It is obvious Ryan and Rachael score much better at Natls than at Worlds and that Mirai scores much better at Intl events than she does at Natls.

This is not brain surgery and faster skating with effortless acceleration counts for alot at Intl events and ALWAYS HAS.

Nothing really too new and the Intl standard of excellence has simply been a victim of USA internal POLITICS.

Frank Carroll never put up with Intl politics - what in the world makes you think he would not speak out against National politics

 

[seniorita]

It took me 12 pages to realize that I dont understand what is reprimanded, I mean I read on the dictionary the meaning but I dont understand how it applies to rachel, they sent her a letter of You did a bad bad thing,, reduced her funding, called her for explaining herself?Nothing of that?