U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

[janetfan]

Alissa Czisny makes 250-500k a year?
I think I missed another

The top US pairs have been doing odd/end jobs just to make ends meet. How on earth did Alissa make 250-500k/year falling all over the place?

Nobody cares about Pairs in USA in case you missed that

As to Alissa there is quite a difference being in a GM commercial as opposed to being the "potato Queen of Colorado."

Also winning the GPF as opposed to finishing DEAD LAST has its rewards.

 

[dwiggin3]

. But I'm glad she's going to NYU this fall. She's smart and determined... I see her as a future businesswoman!
/QUOTE]

Where did you hear this? Has Sasha decided to go to college?

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't remember where I heard it but here's a mention and news link:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Sasha_Cohen_Fans/index.php?showtopic=79

 

[janetfan]

I still don't see any links or hard data that would convince me Sasha (let alone Alissa) is rich. Yes, I recall she bought a fancy house, but that doesn't make her a millionnaire, that meant she had maybe $200K in the bank for a down payment and enough to pay the mortgage. And I wouldn't assume she makes more than Evan made last year as the OGM. You said yourself Michelle would have made much more as the OGM.

I just think skating is a hard life. At best you have a few fat years and then it peters out and you need to restart your life. Some have managed to excel in a second field. So far Sasha's not one of them. But I'm glad she's going to NYU this fall. She's smart and determined... I see her as a future businesswoman!

ETA: Hernando, let's see the math. Maybe Alissa had a nice pile of prize money, but she's also had loads of training and competing expenses. I have no idea how much she got for that 2-second bit in the Detroit commercial--do you have facts?

See the math? I wouldn't show you even if I had it.

I do have an idea of what headlining SOI for five years is worth along with skating for SOI for over a decade.

I am a little familair with where Sasha and her family live and it is highly desirable and very expensive real estate.

For a 25 year old to own a property there is unusual and a sign of very high income earning.

Other than that I leave it to your imagination and you can think whatever you want.
There is no doubt in my mind Sasha has done very well for herself financialy but I certainly agree with gkelly's rhapsodic post about the perils of figure skating.

Back to Alissa, since I am not her agent or anybody's agent I have no idea how much she made for the GM commercial. I do have an idea of what $uper Bowl ads $ell for and it is about the most expensive rates of the year. Even a brief pro-rated stint would be worth thousands based on the millions those ads sell for.

 

[gkelly]

Much of what you wrote I already agreed with , so if you don't read my posts a convesration is difficult at best.

Here's the conversation as it developed, in which you seemed to be arguing that skaters should be treated as employees of the federation because they earn such lavish lifestyles through their skating.

Most US skaters are not earning much from endorsements but last time I checked they are making hundreds of thousands of dollars as "amateur skaters"

I won't argue with you here because I don't know how much US skaters get from the various team envelopes or how much they earn at GP', s Natls, club shows, B events or basically - almost everytime they take they ice.

Oh, I forgot the Disson shows,and other shows various skaters appear at throughout a year.

A quick guess would be that Alissa earned between 250,000 to 500,000 skating last season.

Why in the world would she be in such a rush to retire and start earning a normal salary :think:

FYI, Sasha has earned millions as a skater. Duh......

Since so few skaters actually earn the kinds of amounts you have in mind, the policies of the federation should not be based on those exceptions but on all

Especially because a skater earns no compensation for withdrawing from an event "for the good of the team" but rather gives up the potential to earn some prize money and the potential to earn a higher envelope status.

It is easy enough to challenge what I wrote before by saying I was talking about the top skaters and not the less successful skaters.

Why were you only talking about the top skaters and then pretending (by saying "most skaters" in the post I responded to above) that you were talking about all skaters, or all skaters who represent the US internationally? Your argument doesn't hold up as a basis for USFS policy across the board.

The alternate has to be there if you voluntarily withdraw. That's the point. The federation doesn't own you. Once they've given you that spot, they can't take it back unless you do something egregious.

Do you have facts (written rules) to back up such a statement?

Imagine a sport like hockey, soccer or NFL football if a coach or federation could not suspend a player for behavior detrimental to the team,organiztion or league

Even crazier imagine if an injured player could not be substituted for a fit player for the good of the team.

Is figure skating so different from "real sports" that all logic is thrown out the window?

I think the main difference is that the NFL, NBA, etc. are pro sports leagues where the players are paid, so they treat their players much more like companies treat employees (since that is the basic relationship here). If the employee does something that reflects poorly on the company, then the company takes the appropriate action.

I'm not sure of the exact relationship of USFS to its skaters, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same.

I'm saying that the USFS does not pay its skaters to perform for them. Sure, they may provide a small amount of funding to help out the top athletes, but the skaters do not earn a salary by participating in figure skating.

Amateur athletes aren't paid by their league, so if they're to make any money, it has to come from endorsements- or professional tours.

Figure skating started out as a strict amateur sport and except for a lucky handful of successful skaters it is essentially still an amateur sport today in the US and elsewhere. If you want to compare how it's run, look at other Olympic sports, not at professional team sports where all participants are professionals employed by the team.

Off the top of your head what do you think Alissa won at SC, TEB and the GPF? Let's leave out her numerous commerical appearances for now and start with her earnings from ISU competitive events. Don't forget Alissa also won something at Worlds.......

That's easy. For a bronze and a gold medal in the regular GP events she won $27,000 and an additional $25,000 for winning the final.

The latest listing of championships prize money I could find was ISU Communication 1509 from July 2008. I'm not going to search further to see if it has been superseded. I'm quite sure that the prize amounts have not been raised in that time.

Fifth place for a singles skater at Worlds earns $10,000 and fifth place at Four Continents earns $3,250.

So Czisny's total prize money for those international events -- i.e., money earned directly from competing -- comes to $65,250.
That might be slightly more than her actual expenses, but not significantly.

Then she also earned envelope money from US Figure Skating. She qualified for a higher envelope for 2011-12 than she did for 2010-2011. It's not a huge amount of money.

I don't know what other income she has earned as grants from other sources, as endorsements, or for appearing in shows. Stars on Ice or televised shows would pay a lot more than a club show. Those are opportunities that she gets access to because of competitive success, but they are not money paid to her by the sport of figure skating.

Similarly, Johnny Weir has made a career as a media personality and has probably earned more money through those opportunities than directly through his skating. Skating put him in the public eye so he could become a celebrity, but "skating" didn't write most of the checks.

 

[janetfan]

^ So much multi -quoting puts me at a tecnological disadvantage but to be fair I would say you make good points here and I was wrong.

Alissa is interesting and your own fact digging pretty much shows that Alissa made a "profit" this season as opposed to only being able to compete based on help from her family.

But Alissa, or any "champion" is the exception and not the rule atleast for American skaters.

I agree that comparing skating or gymnastics, swimming, etc is not a valid comparison to professional team sport athletes.
I will add I don't see most successful USA (or any countries) successful skaters as "amateurs."

There is simply too much money being thrown around for me to think of these athletes as anything less than professionals in varying degrees.

I suspect most of the money Johnny has earned is from skating although that can be tricky depending on how and where we draw the line.

I doubt that Johnny earns much money because he can be "controversial" and would bet most of his opportunties are due to the fact that he is "Olympic skater" Johnny Weir.

Same for Sasha, Plushy or any of the skaters who have had a successful career from a financial point.

I don't care so much about skaters like you or my sister or the thousands of true amateurs.

Skating is an expensive past time. I happen to be a book collector and can drop as season's worth of skating costs on a few books if it feels right to me.
I doubt that I will read many remarks pitying "poor book collectors" here or anywhere else.

No one is forcing Caroline Zhang to skate next season. That is her choice along with her family. It will be expensive for her to continue just as me buying the first edition of "Great Gatsby" will be expensive. Sometimes it's about choices.

I can't have a debate about values because they are different for all of us.

I do know that top skaters make a small fortune or more in their careeers and that was the point I was making.

NCAA basketball coaches have a heavy responsibilty convincing and preparing 98% of their players that they are great but not great enough for the NBA or aprofesional career.

Such is life. Most skaters (M.O.S.T.) start out with a MAJOR advantage over American basketball players.

What they do with it and how it turns out is anybodies guess.

Rachael chose to take a year off from college. Does that in any way shape or form mean she deserves a chance to skate at Worlds with a broken leg?

Not from my seat, not now and not ever.
.

 

[Mathman]

Interesting but your comments are about a decade old. I serioulsy doubt if funding is the same in 2011 as it was at the end of the last century.

No, indeed! Funding levels are lower now across the board.

Here are the Grand Prix prizes for 1999.

Individual events Men & Ladies Pairs & Ice Dancing

1st place US$ 30,000.00 US$ 30,000.00
2nd place US$ 18,000.00 US$ 18,000.00
3rd place US$ 10,000.00 US$ 10,000.00
4th place US$ 5,000.00 US$ 5,000.00
5th place US$ 3,000.00 US$ 3,000.00

Final

1st place US$ 50,000.00 1st place US$ 50,000.00
2nd place US$ 30,000.00 2nd place US$ 30,000.00
3rd place US$ 20,000.00 3rd place US$ 20,000.00
4th place US$ 10,000.00 4th place US$ 10,000.00
5th place US$ 8,000.00 5th place US$ 8,000.00
6th place US$ 5,000.00 6th place US$ 5,000.00

http://ww2.isu.org/figure/events/0001/gp0001.html

Here it is now:

Individual events, Men & Ladies, Pairs & Ice Dancing


1st place: US$ 18,000.00 US$ 18,000.00
2nd place: US$ 13,000.00 US$ 13,000.00
3rd place: US$ 9,000.00 US$ 9,000.00
4th place: US$ 3,000.00 US$ 3,000.00
5th place: US$ 2,000.00 US$ 2,000.00


ISU is not responsible for any taxes, fees or other costs.
Men and Ladies Pairs and Ice Dance (per couple)
1st place: US$ 25,000.00 US$ 25,000.00
2nd place: US$ 18,000.00 US$ 18,000.00
3rd place: US$ 12,000.00 US$ 12,000.00
4th place: US$ 6,000.00 US$ 6,000.00
5th place: US$ 4,000.00 US$ 4,000.00
6th place: US$ 3,000.00 US$ 3,000.00

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...nSIUtJ&sig=AHIEtbRi0YaNkylAciy8Wu0F9JrrqeCITw

As for show money, at the peak of popularity of COI, headliner Michelle Kwan reported drew $4-5000 per show, and they did as many as 80 shows. COI is now out of business. I don't know how much SOI pays.

Sonja Henie made $50,000,000 making skating movies (and investing her earnings in California Real Estate. )

 

[gkelly]

I suspect most of the money Johnny has earned is from skating although that can be tricky depending on how and where we draw the line.

In terms of skaters' responsibilities to their federations, I would include only money that he received from the federation or prize money that he received from the ISU.

I would not include money earned by appearing in skating shows. I would certainly not include money earned by appearing in a reality TV show or by publishing an autobiography.

True, he wouldn't have had those opportunities if the skating federation hadn't given him an opportunity to compete at Nationals and internationally in televised events that earned him fans. You could certainly say that money paid by the organizers of shows like Champions on Ice were money for skating. But not money paid to him by the sport of figure skating. So I would not say that he owes USFS anything for those opportunities other than what he already contributed by representing them internationally. Whether he did a better job at that than, say, Rachael Flatt is up for debate.

But again, we're talking about exceptions. Even if we're just talking about rules for skaters competing at Worlds, they still have to cover all skaters who compete at Worlds and not just those who happened to have caught the imagination of fans, show promoters, and TV networks enough to be offered extra money-making opportunities that are not part of the sport itself.

 

[Mathman]

The reward is being in some GM commercial for 2 seconds. No one outside of this forum knows who the hell that person is doing with her leg above her head. .. She probably got $20 bucks for that 2 seconds.

I think she got scale. As far as i can tell from Alissa's own comments, she got the job just by being listed with agencies, presumably under "pretty skater who can spin." I don't think they were trying to tie it in with Eminem's Slim Shady's adventures along Eight Mile Road.

Alissa says she spun for several hours to get those two seconds.

I wrote to the editors of the Detroit Free Press to tell them, hey, you know that girl in the Chrysler ad? She just won the U.S. Championship and will be representing the U.S.A. at the World Championships next month. (Actually, the Free Press is one of the few newspapers in the country that reports figure skating regularly in the sports pages, through Olympic sports writer Jo-ann Barnas. )

I think Alissa got more money out of Chrysler for the follow-up features that they (Chrysler) used on their web site.

 

[seniorita]

As for show money, at the peak of popularity of COI, headliner Michelle Kwan reported drew $4-5000 per show, and they did as many as 80 shows. COI is now out of business. I don't know how much SOI pays.

Thats probably why they went out of business.

 

[Mathman]

^ In those days they played to full houses, maybe 12,000-15,000 people. If tickets were $60, that’s…um…

Let’s see, there were about 20 skaters in the cast…

 

[FlattFan]

Tickets are about 20-50 bucks. You're lucky to have 3-5000 people come out. This isn't a lady gaga concert.
On average, each show will collect 150k-250k from tickets + sponsors' money.
How much should Michelle Kwan charge them? 50k to do a salchow and a toe? What about the rest of them, what about the crews?

Another relevant point is those reality stars like the Real Housewives made 3k/episode in their first and second seasons. How much do you think Johnny Weir made for his reality show? 500/episode? An episode isn't a day of work, btw.

Alissa made 500k/year? Here's another and

If they have a Freaky Friday moment, most skating girls would not hesitate to trade their place with Rachael. At the end of the day, Rachael has it all. I can't believe some people had the nerve to make fun of her academic achievement.

 

[seniorita]

^ In those days they played to full houses, maybe 12,000-15,000 people. If tickets were $60, that’s…um…

Let’s see, there were about 20 skaters in the cast…

^ you need help?

all tickets costed 60$? no variation? sounds expensive for that time, almost ten years ago?
And what kind of arenas had 10-15K seats?

So even if all 20 skaters were payed the michelle kwan salary which I doubt , stil it was nothing comparing to the daily ticket sales.
But 5000 for 10 minutes skate sounded a lot for that era, and for nowadays too! I think though now the top skaters get from 10-20.000 $ per night.

I can't believe some people had the nerve to make fun of her academic achievement.

Moi, I m really jealous of where she is about to go.

 

[R.D.]

If they have a Freaky Friday moment, most skating girls would not hesitate to trade their place with Rachael. At the end of the day, Rachael has it all.

Apparently not. No world medals, etc.

That said, she does have her life ahead of her, and I'm pretty sure she will be happy whether or not she continues skating. It helps that she is well off, too.

 

[Olympia]

She is definitely worth envying. Shakespeare said "the past is prologue," and for Rachael, I think this will turn out to be true. Like Dr.Debi Thomas (and Michelle Kwan too, I suspect), Rachael's best achievements probably lie ahead. She's not going to need to look back with regret, whether she skates next season or not. (I kind of hope she does, so she doesn't end on the low note of this year's Worlds.) There are some people whose best moments are as champion athletes, in their teens. The rest of their life doesn't live up to those early victories and the adulation they receive. I know that this will not be true of Rachael. Good for her! I look forward to reading about her future accomplishments.

 

[Mathman]

Tickets are about 20-50 bucks. You're lucky to have 3-5000 people come out. This isn't a lady gaga concert.
On average, each show will collect 150k-250k from tickets + sponsors' money.

How much should Michelle Kwan charge them? 50k to do a salchow and a toe? What about the rest of them, what about the crews?

I'm talking about back in the day! I wasn't able to find accurate attendance records for COI, but for the Hersey's kisses cheesefest in LA in 1994 the official attendance was 16,408. Tickets were $100, $40, $30 and $20, and the gross (not countiung sponsorships) was $379,284. (So you were right that they sell more cheap tickets than expensive ones.)

Cheesfests paid $50,000 to the winners, plus whatever they got im appearance fees. In COI not all performers got the same amount. Sasha is probably the highest paid on SOI.

There were 93 stops on the COI circuit in 1994, by the way

In the last year of the COI tour (2005) Arakawa was reported to be receiving between $2000 and $3000 for a couple of Salchows (actually, for a triple Salchow-triple loop.)

Jenny Kirk writes that she was amazed that Michelle always did her full complement of triples in every COI performance.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

See the math? I wouldn't show you even if I had it.

I do have an idea of what headlining SOI for five years is worth along with skating for SOI for over a decade.

I am a little familair with where Sasha and her family live and it is highly desirable and very expensive real estate.

For a 25 year old to own a property there is unusual and a sign of very high income earning.

Other than that I leave it to your imagination and you can think whatever you want.
There is no doubt in my mind Sasha has done very well for herself financialy but I certainly agree with gkelly's rhapsodic post about the perils of figure skating.

Back to Alissa, since I am not her agent or anybody's agent I have no idea how much she made for the GM commercial. I do have an idea of what $uper Bowl ads $ell for and it is about the most expensive rates of the year. Even a brief pro-rated stint would be worth thousands based on the millions those ads sell for.

I have no idea how much wealth Sasha has but going by former posts on her old website it seems she, her mom, and her sister have often traveled to Europe on vacation including countries like Greece. I don't know about you guys but it would take me several years to save up for just one such trip never mind several. And of course there's that house in Laguna. You'd have to be pretty well to do with great credit to be approved for a mortgage for a million dollar home, never mind the downpayment on such a house imo. She'd still have to be pretty well off to make those monthly mortgage payments unless she purchased the home outright from her earnings.

 

[Spun Silver]

But the thing is, don't you people read the financial news? So many homeowners these days are underwater, owing more than their equity in the house. Just because Sasha plunked down the DP for a big house in a ritzy 'hood, that doesn't mean she can keep up the payments. She comes from a pretty wealthy family that can certainly afford vacations, but I'm wondering about her own present earning power.

I have yet to see any factual data here on what SOI pays NOW. I do know, from having been to three shows in the past 5 years, that it is struggling desperately to get even 1/4 of a full house, and that's including papering the house with giveaways to seniors and kids. They can't be paying giant salaries when they're not selling tickets. And $10-20K per performance, as Seniorita suggests, is not credible. That's more than most opera singers get, and opera is way more popular than skating. (E.g., the Met runs for 7-8 months each year in NYC, 7 performances per week, in a house that seats 3000, that's regularly 60-100% full... NOT 25% like SOI in its *annual* performance in E. Rutherford or Newark.)

 

[Tonichelle]

SOI pays (paid) by the season, not the show, if I understand Scott's, Katia's and SOI's books.

 

[Mathman]

About the question of what competitive skaters "owe" to USFS, here is an example.

Mirai is probably the best and most popular skater in the United States. Although she did not achieve all of her competitive goals last year, still she did well. Certainly much better than 99.99% of all participants in the sport.

In prize money from the ISU she earned:

Cup of China: $3000 for fourth place
Eric Bompard: $13,000 for second place
Four continents: $6000 for third place.

In addition she received team A funding from USFS, estimate $5,000.

Her total expenses -- who knows? Maybe $60,000, 70,000, 80,000? She made extra money from shows and exhibitions. The majority of her skating expenses were born by her parents.

I do not see the argument that posits Mirai as an employee of USFS, owing them a huge debt of loyalty and awe. (This she owes to her parents. )

And what kind of arenas had 10-15K seats?

The two venues for ice shows in the Detroit area are the Palace of Auburn Hills (home of the Detroit Pistons basketball team), with a seating capacity of 22,000, and Joe Lewis arena (Detroit Red Wings hockey), 20,000.

In the 1990s and eary 2000s they were half to three-quarters full for figure skating. (I would always count the house. So many sections, so many rows per section, so many seats per row...oh, has the show started already? )