Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

[Mrs. P]

A lot of countries use criteria in addition to nationals to pick their teams. There's Russia, who sometimes uses events like Euros to finalize placements, and Japan, where you can qualify with a strong GPF performance. Yes, all contenders are at Nationals but if you can narrow that field to the 2 or 3 most likely contenders, it would help the USFSA to have one more data point if it chose to go that route. As for your other hypotheticals, decisions could be made on a case-by-case basis.

We fielded a weak men's team in 2011, and injury issues with our ladies the last two years. The USFSA needs more options to deal with these situations; it couldn't even get Tonya Harding off the team in 1994 because of the rules in place.

I think you and MM place too much emphasis on the "fairness" aspect, which can be at odds with the mission of USFSA. Worlds is the one event which the organization should have a little latitude because the results have future implications.

But those systems have their shortfalls as well. In 2006, Miki Ando was SIXTH at Nationals but was sent because she had the most points under its current system (basically skaters were given skaters based on previous results). But that didn't prevent her meltdown at the Olympics. Also, it's worth noting that they haven't done the GPF thing since 2010.

And though the U.S. fielded a "weak" (or newbie, rather) team in 2011, the top two on that team still finished better, on the whole, (9th for Richard, 11th for Ross = 20) then the team everyone felt should have been sent and was sent this year (Jeremy 8th, Adam, 13 =21)

The mission of the USFSA extends beyond elite skaters, which makes a small percentage of its membership. Although having people win international medals could potentially boost participation, perhaps, in the end, I think it really has little baring over most of USFSA's members.

 

[chuckm]

One thing I think USFS could do is require a monitoring session before Worlds---have the skater run through both problems before a panel of US officials---if there is any question of fitness. Monitoring after Challenge Cup would have demonstrated that Alissa was not in condition to compete at Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But those systems have their shortfalls as well.

No system is perfect, but I just feel strong that the benefits outweigh the costs by having more than one result (Nationals) to choose the World team. Again, it's because other countries have rules that allow them to field their best team, while our rules mandate that results from one event are used to pick a team (for the most part).

 

[gkelly]

One thing I think USFS could do is require a monitoring session before Worlds---have the skater run through both problems before a panel of US officials---if there is any question of fitness. Monitoring after Challenge Cup would have demonstrated that Alissa was not in condition to compete at Worlds.

Which would be a lot easier to implement in a federation where all the training centers and officials homes are in the same city or at least within a few hundred miles of each other. How much would it cost to get the whole world team in one place before Worlds, or to get monitors to all their home rinks? Is that the best use of USFS funds? Or would you make the skaters pay for the travel out of their own pockets?

 

[Mrs. P]

No system is perfect, but I just feel strong that the benefits outweigh the costs by having more than one result (Nationals) to choose the World team. Again, it's because other countries have rules that allow them to field their best team, while our rules mandate that results from one event are used to pick a team (for the most part).

Let's say we expand the criteria to include other competition. Would have the 2012 World ladies team been different? Not really. Alissa was actually our best finisher in the GP Series and was the only American to be in the GPF. Ashley Wagner probably ranked second with a bronze and a 4th place finish.

In 2010, if the USFSA sent Ashley to the Olympics instead of Mirai because Ashley had a strong GP series (and Mirai did not), would that have given a dramatically different result? I don't think so.

I just don't think the USFSA criteria is THE reason we have lost three spots or have been unable to gain those spots back or a lack of medals. It is not the USFSA's fault that the skaters cannot bring it at the big events. Ultimately it's the skaters who compete not the federation.

I do agree with monitoring skaters in the months before Worlds, but that's a totally different bag then developing some complicated criteria for World team selection.

 

[chuckm]

Which would be a lot easier to implement in a federation where all the training centers and officials homes are in the same city or at least within a few hundred miles of each other. How much would it cost to get the whole world team in one place before Worlds, or to get monitors to all their home rinks? Is that the best use of USFS funds? Or would you make the skaters pay for the travel out of their own pockets?

I think monitoring is in order IF there is a reason for concern. Ice Challenge should have raised a red flag and USFS should have monitored Alissa after that competition. There's no need to monitor the entire team every time.

 

[OS]

(This refers back to OS168's post # 90; I screwed up the quoting function.)

The short-lived careers of American skaters might also be due to the fact that (like Canadians) our skaters finance most of their own efforts. Unless a skater has real success and can raise sponsors, it's probably not possible for him or her to stay around for long anyway, which is sad.

I am surprised Americans are self financed as much as the Canadians given my impression of USFSA seems all mighty and powerful and do often exercise their power regulating their skaters. Usually those who has the power usually controls the finances otherwise why would anyone want to listen to them? How big is the organisation (a party of 10? 20? 30?) I wonder how much is their budget, do they contribute to the skaters training, their health care and receive their winning as well?

Alissa's "My hip won't work right, which is why I can't jump." Maybe it was the reason she found out AFTER medical consultation?
My impression is every skaters have learnt to deal with injuries/discomfort throughout their career, they just adapt to it as best they can. Obviously from these latest finding, it doesn't sound serious enough to raise alarm if she was landing them okay during practice and her coach found it okay. Sometimes it can comes to down to incredible streaks of bad luck. Should people penalize for it for not crying wolf often enough instead of being responsible for themselves? What happened to 'No Pain No Gain'? Or has the blame game became so bad we might as well change the motto to 'Slight pain. Give up now or pay the consequences to USFSA'. :sarcasm:

As for Hersh's article, I have no problem with it. A columnist's view is not meant to be some sort of fair, moral guardianship but about giving their personal insights to the matter. Which person is not slightly biased? He does not write for Reuters which would be dry and boring to read. His columns are a great catalyst for discussions from opposing views even if you disagree with him.

Re: Skatefiguring

I agree with what you said 'explained' the phenomenon, but it does not excuse it. Japan is also a superpower skating nation with fierce competition at home. But I have never seen anyone really harsh with their own skaters, except may be Oda with his Maths problems, and even Fumi who keep turning up in even more 'interesting' costumes never got much of a flack. Mao being their sweet heart forever certainly never received the type of harsh reception reserved for American sweethearts when they fail to deliver.

 

[R.D.]

I think monitoring is in order IF there is a reason for concern. Ice Challenge should have raised a red flag and USFS should have monitored Alissa after that competition. There's no need to monitor the entire team every time.

Problem with that, though, is in the case there is NOT something like Ice Challenge to generate another data point post-Nats. What if Czisny did not do CC- how would we have known her condition was so poor prior to Worlds? IMHO, the investment must be made if we're serious about regaining our position in ladies. Look what Russia did this year for instance. No system is perfect, but you can't honestly expect the skaters (who naturally will want to compete until their leg falls off) to make the right call especially when it comes to the World Championships. The skaters may go to Worlds individually and get individual results, but those results have a "domino effect" on the team for following years.

If USFS just continues to leave it up to the skaters/coaches to do what they will after Nationals, mark my words- this cycle is going to keep repeating itself. We were so fortunate to have strong, consistent skaters over the years and decades. To paraphrase a certain recent US president- "Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice.....you see, we can't get fooled again!"

 

[Violet Bliss]

To paraphrase a certain recent US president- "Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice.....you see, we can't get fooled again!"

I guess he just couldn't bring himself to say "shame on me."

 

[blue dog]

I guess he just couldn't bring himself to say "shame on me."

Or, he couldn't say-- shame on those who voted for me.

Skatefiguring, your post is up on her page.

 

[Mrs. P]

Problem with that, though, is in the case there is NOT something like Ice Challenge to generate another data point post-Nats. What if Czisny did not do CC- how would we have known her condition was so poor prior to Worlds? IMHO, the investment must be made if we're serious about regaining our position in ladies. Look what Russia did this year for instance. No system is perfect, but you can't honestly expect the skaters (who naturally will want to compete until their leg falls off) to make the right call especially when it comes to the World Championships. The skaters may go to Worlds individually and get individual results, but those results have a "domino effect" on the team for following years.

If USFS just continues to leave it up to the skaters/coaches to do what they will after Nationals, mark my words- this cycle is going to keep repeating itself. We were so fortunate to have strong, consistent skaters over the years and decades. To paraphrase a certain recent US president- "Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice.....you see, we can't get fooled again!"

As someone pointed out in another thread a few months ago — perhaps it's worth considering that perhaps the U.S. team in Ladies, Men and Paris just aren't competitive enough to be deem worthy of three spots or medals?

I don't think any amount of extra data wrangling or federation conferences would create a team that would blow away any team chosen at Nationals. The improvement would be marginal at best.

What difference would a team of Mirai and Alissa make over Rachael and Alissa? Mirai may have finished 8th and gained back the three spots, or she could have finish worse. I think a healthy Rachael could have finished better than 12th too and in fact, it's noteworthy that Rachael still managed to get 12th (and 2 GPs) despite an injury.

None of the ladies or men, for that matter, have shown such amazing results that they are worthy to be chosen despite a subpar nationals result. The only skater I think I would extend some sort of "past result clause" to is someone like Evan --- but even at his worst, Evan always finished well enough to get on the World team.

The U.S. skaters — and skaters from many other nations — have managed to win world medals without having the full three spots.

ETA: But back to Alissa's case, I don't think that what happened is reflective of a need to change selection criteria. I think, rather, it's reflective of a need to publicize/develop a protocol for coaches regarding identifying injuries prior to competition. It could be as simple as a USFSA official making an intital call of Alissa's condition or working with a representative on-site at the skating club for monitoring.

In addition, during Champs Camp, or some other seminar, USFSA need to emphasize the importance of disclosing injuries and enforcing fines, as necessary, when that does not occur.

 

[Mathman]

I think you and MM place too much emphasis on the "fairness" aspect, which can be at odds with the mission of USFSA.

!

 

[skfan]

do i understand correctly that all the blathering that skater X deserves the 'right' to squander world spot by skating in whatever condition... are based on the premise that skater X earned spot fairly at nationals?

if so, then since nationals judging was a load of crock, skater X doesn't deserve the spot, nor the right to squander it.

fairness is more important to me than # of world spot, # of world medals, and fairness is why i find u s nationals one of the most revolting examples of political favoritism.

it's too bad for skaters like armin, whose money and health and horizons beyond skating are sacrificed largely in vain while the sacred cows continue to be propped up and coddled.

then when a sacred cow predictably plops, the apologists come out and say things like: but the other girls from our country are so sucky they don't deserve to take up 3 spots at worlds.

even if the u s girls were truly that sucky, the world spots still should go to the two least sucky, not 1 less sucky + 1 sacred cow.

every time i read that the other u.s. girls just suck so much they don't deserve the best shot to appear at worlds, i'm tempted to roll out another version of this post.

 

[gkelly]

I am surprised Americans are self financed as much as the Canadians given my impression of USFSA seems all mighty and powerful and do often exercise their power regulating their skaters. Usually those who has the power usually controls the finances otherwise why would anyone want to listen to them?

Participation in international events is determined through the federations. If a skater wants to compete at Olympics, ISU championships, Grand Prix,* Junior Grand Prix, or (in most cases) "senior B" events, the skater needs to be assigned to the event by her federation. She can't just say "gee, I'd like to compete at Worlds" and sign up for it. She needs the federation to assign her.

That's the power that the federation holds over the skaters. What they have to offer is not so much money as access to opportunities.

(*Skaters can earn their way onto the GP through their results in other international events. So although the federation doesn't assign them directly except in the case of host picks, the skater does need to have been assigned to one or more of the other international competitions mentioned above and had good results there to earn GP invitations.)

How big is the organisation (a party of 10? 20? 30?) I wonder how much is their budget, do they contribute to the skaters training, their health care and receive their winning as well?

The organization has about 180,000 members, mostly lower and mid-level participant skaters. Most members join the national organization through their local skating clubs. The federation provides a wide variety of services to all members, with far more programs now than when the organization was founded, or than when I was a teen skater in the 1970s.

Some of those programs, such as tests and qualifying competitions, are part of the process of developing international-level competitors, but most members who participate in those programs are never going to make it to the international level.

Here's an overview of the organization as a whole:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/About.asp?id=13

Here's the mission statement:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/About.asp?id=71

The governing structure is similar to that of other nonprofit organizations. There are a few permanent employees who work at the association headquarters, but most of the decisions are made by officers and committee members who volunteer their time and are only reimbursed for expenses.

The skaters are not employees of the federation. The skaters who qualify for the team "envelopes" based on results at Nationals and internationally receive some funding for the next year, but even for those in envelope A get only a fraction of what it costs them to train all year (ice time, equipment, coaching fees, travel, etc.).

There are also scholarships available through the Memorial Fund. Again, these grants are helpful but don't come close to covering a competitive skater's expenses.

For the top international skaters with Olympic potential there can be additional funding through the USOC. And for those who compete in international events that offer prize money and place well there, that's another source of income.

There certainly were other ways that top US skaters got paid through the federation a decade or so ago when there was a lot of interest and money coming in from TV networks, with made-for-TV events to which a handful of top skaters would be invited. So at the peak of the public interest boom maybe 10-20 skaters a year were able not only to cover their training expenses but even earn a profit just from money that came from the federation. Now it would be much fewer; in some years maybe no skater actually clears a profit.

Here's a list of the committees:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content.asp?menu=leadership&id=202

The International Committee would be the group responsible for deciding which skaters to assign to international competitions, and whether to pull them off the team if appropriate. That committee has 35 members.

 

[R.D.]

As someone pointed out in another thread a few months ago — perhaps it's worth considering that perhaps the U.S. team in Ladies, Men and Paris just aren't competitive enough to be deem worthy of three spots or medals?

But this point ignores the real issue here- that TWO years in a row, we have sent injured skater(s) to worlds. At least in one year it was proven that said skater knew about the injury, but went anyway.

If they were healthy- or pulled out so a healthy alternate could go instead- the results *might* have been different. In both years, the poor performance could be blamed directly, or indirectly, on injury.
_____________________

I see several posters (as well as Mr. Hersh) are willing to take Czisny at her word when she claims she had no idea that she was injured during worlds. Fine. It was later pointed out that her injury is not something that just develops overnight- it takes time to manifest and the effects would be felt months before it gets bad enough to get checked out. And she openly admitted that she felt something wasn't right near the end of the season. This was clear when she did xamboni at Challenge cup- and yet, she still went to the World Championships and boom, same thing. That choice has bearing consequences beyond putting her at further risk of injury- it undermines the US ladies program for next year and continues the "domino effect" we've had going on here.

It seems to me that this vicious cycle of sending injured skaters to worlds (partly due to negligence on part of the federation, I may add) is going to make it that much harder for us to get out of this slump. In addition to sending the strongest team ON PAPER, we must trust that the skater(s) will remain in shape, be honest & forthcoming about any injury, and give their best effort. The keyword here is TRUST since the USFS does not currently do any monitoring. We already saw the Flatt case last year where team Flatt decided to send her anyway instead of pulling her out. With some nudging, USFS looked into it and made the decision to fine her for it. So this year, we have a similar situation with Czisny- and instead of pulling out when it was clear she was D&O, she went anyway- and waited until AFTER the world championship to figure out what the issue was. Clever way of avoiding the brouhaha of last year, no?

 

[Mrs. P]

But this point ignores the real issue here- that TWO years in a row, we have sent injured skater(s) to worlds. At least in one year it was proven that said skater knew about the injury, but went anyway.

If they were healthy- or pulled out so a healthy alternate could go instead- the results *might* have been different. In both years, the poor performance could be blamed directly, or indirectly, on injury.
_____________________

I see several posters (as well as Mr. Hersh) are willing to take Czisny at her word when she claims she had no idea that she was injured during worlds. Fine. It was later pointed out that her injury is not something that just develops overnight- it takes time to manifest and the effects would be felt months before it gets bad enough to get checked out. And she openly admitted that she felt something wasn't right near the end of the season. This was clear when she did xamboni at Challenge cup- and yet, she still went to the World Championships and boom, same thing. That choice has bearing consequences beyond putting her at further risk of injury- it undermines the US ladies program for next year and continues the "domino effect" we've had going on here.

It seems to me that this vicious cycle of sending injured skaters to worlds (partly due to negligence on part of the federation, I may add) is going to make it that much harder for us to get out of this slump. In addition to sending the strongest team ON PAPER, we must trust that the skater(s) will remain in shape, be honest & forthcoming about any injury, and give their best effort. The keyword here is TRUST since the USFS does not currently do any monitoring. We already saw the Flatt case last year where team Flatt decided to send her anyway instead of pulling her out. With some nudging, USFS looked into it and made the decision to fine her for it. So this year, we have a similar situation with Czisny- and instead of pulling out when it was clear she was D&O, she went anyway- and waited until AFTER the world championship to figure out what the issue was. Clever way of avoiding the brouhaha of last year, no?

I'm not saying that it's okay to send injured skaters to Worlds. What I am saying is that I'm not sure how a big alteration to the selection process would have prevented this to begin with.

I am for monitoring, as I said before, but I don't think that's the same thing as altering the selection criteria.

As picking a better team on paper, in reality, Ashley and Alissa were our best bets on paper. Both had decent GP seasons and in fact Alissa had the highest SB out of all the girls as of Nationals...so I don't think any selection criteria would have prevented this incident.

 

[chuckm]

The main difference between USFS and Skate Canada wrt funding is that USFS sends lots of skaters to International "B" events, while SC sends very few.

 

[R.D.]

As picking a better team on paper, in reality, Ashley and Alissa were our best bets on paper. Both had decent GP seasons and in fact Alissa had the highest SB out of all the girls as of Nationals...so I don't think any selection criteria would have prevented this incident.

Yes, they were the best team on paper. But in order for them to be the best team in reality, they both must be fit and healthy.

The only thing worse than using only one event to pick the team is using only one event to pick the team, then walking away.

 

[chuckm]

Let's not forget that Czisny folded in the GPF six weeks before Nationals, and again at a club competition, with skates that foreshadowed her post-Nationals performances. Alissa's Nationals skates weren't up to par as well, but as usual she was overmarked, with no caution about her recent performance level.

 

[mskater93]

Who would you have placed ahead of her at Nationals? Gao? Zawadski? Zhang? Nagasu? Flatt? I don't think she was severely overmarked relatively to anyone else.