The Judging Controversy Thread

[usethis2]

NBC's propaganda is such a farce. As well as many figure skating "insiders'" analysis. Kim has been known to be the defender of COP. She and Wilson knew how to rack up points while maintaining artistry, which is why Kim was considered such a rare talent. I don't know how anyone could say Kim is athletically inferior to anyone - that is so untrue. How many events that were disastrous (to say the least) by sub-par skating were saved by Kim's flawless performances? I lost count. Had it not been for Kim, COP would have been under even bigger pressure for the past years.

The narrative NBC et al. is trying to push is absolutely disingenuous. We will see how COP will do without Kim. I will surely miss her monstrous 3Lz+3T.

 

[att]

Okey...I got one simple question...HOW THE HELL ADELINA SCORE HIGHER THAN PERFECT MAO IN LP..?even Yuna can't beat that...

 

[Ophelia]

^Yo, even Lipniskaia scored higher than Mao.

 

[bebevia]

South Korea Puts Anger Aside After Olympic Skating Disappointment
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/w...-after-olympic-skating-disappointment.html?hp
So no surprise they filed complaint about Kim as well

I guess you also posted that Victor An article in another thread, right? It's not right to suggest irrelevant controversies - moreso concerning a domestic issue. (Koreans only wished Russia and Canada take Yuna) Also, most past protests made by Koreans were very much valid, and Korea isn't the only country to protest against its disadvantageous results.

In case of the 1988 boxing, the article is distorting facts. Wine and dine was a rumour that followed the dubious judging for an obvious reason, but was not the factor. It's mixing up the protest at a Korea vs. Bulgaria match about the dubious judging by a Bulgarian referee against Korea, which did not go through; rather, the boxer was suspended for 5 yrs, and the chairs of KBF and Korean Olympic Committee resigned. Another Korean boxer had the opposite: he won the quarter with a home advantage, then won with a dubious judging. That was part of famous Cold War Olympics disasters, where the two of the five referees were Russian and Hungarian, who wanted to revenge the US winning more golds.

BTW, that Korean boxer did not agree and lifted the US boxer's hand at the podium. He was then blamed for everything, even by Koreans, and led a miserable life. What are you trying to suggest about Sotnikova by relating this article?

 

[jehan215]

More videos on this conspiracy theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yJKzve6xg

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

More videos on this conspiracy theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yJKzve6xg

Wow. It's like those reporters watch figure skating only once every four years or something I'm not debunking the conspiracy but that reporting is awful. I'd rather hear it from sky_fly20 than either of them, again

 

[usethis2]

Be careful and try not to click on any link on this thread. Could be a virus, you know.

 

[Skater Boy]

If they wanted scores to go up, then it would have happened across the board. I think most of us saw Adelina's 149 and shocking as it was, thought a clean Yuna would get a new WR.

No...only 3 skaters saw uncanny increase in PCS at the olympics. Only 3...Julia, Adelina, and Gracie. Nobody else.

Someone posted a graph of PCS over the last year for all of the ladies ....check out the chart and you'll see gradual lines up at the top, up and down chop at the bottom, but then three skaters skyrocket in the last few weeks.

(just so happens to coincide with the French newspaper report btw)

They were very generous with Edmunds as well. Very

 

[Skater Boy]

Carolina was cheated out of a silver too (ok, some people might even say gold, but I won't go that far).

Imagine if Adelina had a reasonable score and got bronze over Gracie (who fell). We could be debating OGM between Yuna and Carolina. And that would be a real debate, without conspiracy. That would just be two sides debating for the next 20 years but no sense of improper scandal.

But no, instead we have this ********.

Well an argument can be made first from what Carolina skated she didn't have as dififcult routine and her salking should severely affect her pcs and goes. Now morally or karma she may deserve no medal for all the generous marks she has recevied in the past and th ough she is good on pcs she is not at the level of Dai or Chan in men (cmparatively or Yuna.

 

[yuki90]

Interesting Youtube video about Sotnikova's RIDICULOUS SCORE.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5cVW0h6U3D4

 

[dorispulaski]

They were very generous with Edmunds as well. Very

Olympics was Edmunds' very first senior competition, other than US nationals. It is not surprising that her PCS values would be adjusted. It did not hurt that she had great practices, and skated very well in the SP.

 

[verysmuchso]

For those interested in ISU rules regarding the eligibility of judges and technical callers and related to conflict of interest read:http://static.isu.org/media/79153/2012_constitution_and_general_regulations.pdf
Especially Rule 121 which starts in p114.
It includes restrictions regarding affiliation to a member federation (full-time employee of a national federation ineligible as a tech specialist in the event hosted in that country, etc)
and the ineligibility of 'family' and the definition of the term 'family' as broadly-defined relationships with an athlete.

 

[evangeline]

Okey...I got one simple question...HOW THE HELL ADELINA SCORE HIGHER THAN PERFECT MAO IN LP..?even Yuna can't beat that...

Mao underrotated 2 jumps. I thought the 3F-3Lo was borderline (I personally would've let it go), but the 3T in her 2A-3T was clearly underrotated.

 

[CarneAsada]

That one was the interview with CBC Sports. The one I saw was her commentating afterwards in German. I speak German so I understood, but I guess you can use the translation function? - though it obviously would be a bit off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT07-Jc00jQ

There is a translate captions option but it was not clickable. I don't speak German but I believe I heard "Um Gotteswillen" uttered a few times?

Mao underrotated 2 jumps. I thought the 3F-3Lo was borderline (I personally would've let it go), but the 3T in her 2A-3T was clearly underrotated.

See that is always the argument but she already rotated 6 triples and Adelina was not dinged for either an 'e' or a < on her 3Lz-3T which deserved both. So I refuse to ever acknowledge either one of those bogus < calls for Mao's program (Kurt didn't even think the 3F-3Lo needed to be reviewed!). Hell if Adelina and Julia now have clean Lutzes (notice how neither one got the call for their more valuable combination, the 3Lz-3T?) Mao could truly be the first skater to ever land 8 triples in a FS without any < or edge calls!

 

[vegarin]

Mao underrotated 2 jumps. I thought the 3F-3Lo was borderline (I personally would've let it go), but the 3T in her 2A-3T was clearly underrotated.

Yep, but it helped that Adelina didn't get any edge calls on the jumps that she always got edge calls on, or her UR wasn't called on. If they were going to be that generous with tech calls, Mao didn't get any of the benefits.

 

[yuki90]

Russians and someone who think Sotnikova's score is fair should read this.

http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/64956111

.
.
.
2. The edge call on the triple lutz
Lutz is differentiated from flip by the take-off edge when entering into the jump. The former uses deep outside edge and the latter an inside edge. If this distinction is not upheld by the judges, there would be little point in awarding different marks for each jump. The judging call on the wrong edge take-off in the Olympics is all the more interesting in light of this fact: from 2013 World Championship to CoC, TEB, GPF and European Championship, she tried 3Lz 7 times and was found to have used the wrong edge 6 times. As the replay of her programmes will show, Sotnikova still jumped with the wrong edge in the Olympics. But there was no wrong edge mark in her protocol.
In fact, she received positive GOE for jumps that were done with the wrong technique. According to current rules, judges can request a super-slow video of the jumps to verify the edge call. How could have the judges missed it?

3. The lack of rotation on the 3T in Sotnikova’s 3LZ – 3T in the free programme.
.
.
.
6. Awarding of GOE on the jumps
The giving of positive GOE on executed jumps involves the consideration of ISU guidelines. Those include the consideration of flow, both in and out of the jumps, in-air position, and the take-off. In comparing Sotnikova’s flip with Yuna’s flip, the discrepancies in GOE are readily obvious. For one, Sotnikova clearly demonstrated poor take-off. The full blade, as opposed to just the toe, was in contact with the ice; the flow in and out of the jump also looked heavy and forced. Sotnikova's jumping mechanism is the same whether she jumps the flip or flutz (lutz with wrong edge take-off) - a clear indication of a technical flaw.On the other hand, Yuna’s flip was jumped with perfect technique, blended into the choreography of the programme, with excellent flow in and out of the jump. But it was Sotnikova who was awarded the higher GOE. One of the judges even gave Yuna zero GOE for her flip, when the quality of the jump called for plus GOE.

7. The rebuttal of the base value argument.
Only 1.4 difference in the base value

The base-value argument, i.e. Sotnikova had one more triple than Yuna, is logically flawed. We only need to look at the TES in the short programme to disprove it. Yuna, jumping 3Lz-3T, 3F and 2A, had more base value in jumps than Sotnikova. Yet she was awarded lower TES though her jumps were perfectly landed. Even if we were to argue on the basis of base-value argument, the difference between Sotnikova and Yuna is extremely slim. Calculating the base value in the short and the free, there is only 1.44 separating the two. That is not even worth a double flip or loop.

The base-value argument fundamentally ignores the fact that the final score of the programme also relies on the awarding of GOE as well as PCS. Whether there were 7 triples or 6 triples or 8 triples is only a very small part of the story. Mao Asada jumped 8 triples for the free programme, but was scored under Sotnikova because of minus GOE. It is the actual execution of those jumps and judges’ perception of their quality that decides the marks, not the plan on the paper. It has already been said that Sotnikova’s execution of technical elements were not the cleanest on the night. But GOE given to her is something you would see given to perfectly executed elements.

At any rate, 1.44 is a difference that could be overcome by a skater like Yuna, whose quality of skating and interpretation very strongly merits a high level of positive GOE and PCS. That much is evident, easily proven by referring back to Yuna’s protocols over the course of her career. Despite the fact that her free programme was executed perfectly well, her GOE in comparison to Sotnikova’s was underscored. The base value argument is misleading in the extreme, trying to take away the attention from poor judgment calls made during the ladies’ event. The level of PCS and GOE, as well as the edge call, given to Sotnikova should be the debating point, not Yuna’s base values.

 

[evangeline]

Oh, I definitely think the UR call on Mao's 3F-3Lo was questionable, but I'm of the opinion that it's more the result of the tech panels' extreme paranoia of combinations with 3Lo on the back end.

 

[chuckm]

Those who think Gracie's PCS scores were overinflated due to a Russian-US agreement don't seem to realize that THERE WAS NO US JUDGE ON THE PANEL FOR THE FREE SKATE.

 

[ks777]

Those who think Gracie's PCS scores were overinflated due to a Russian-US agreement don't seem to realize that THERE WAS NO US JUDGE ON THE PANEL FOR THE FREE SKATE.

Exactly! Gracie scored 130 something with a mistake so I think she is capable of scoring 140 something with a clean skate.

 

[whatif]

I also felt that had Gracie not made mistakes, her scores would have been close to 142, even without US judges on the panel. The judges seem to like her.