Dick Button: What Went Wrong With Figure Skating

[Meoima]

Well, people do come back after a stroke - if it was a stroke of course.
He might do very well together with a young and energetic vice-president :yes:

Stéphane Lambiel as the young and energetic vice-president?

 

[Anna K.]

Stéphane Lambiel as the young and energetic vice-president?

Now, that's wishful thinking
However, wait. If I think again... Lambiel has always been an ambitious young man

 

[sk8in]

There are things I really like about the ISU system. I love the athleticism and technique that goes into the jumps, and the point values is what forced me to learn about what the different jumps are. You also can't deny that the women's field has gotten more athletic as a result of the higher standards. We've got triple axles, triple-triples as a minimum, and even talks of quads. That kind of thing does make me really excited about watching competitions.

 

[Nadya]

I disagree with Button on this:

Speed skating is a sport judged by metrics; figure skating is judged by both metrics and subjective judgment. You can’t have artistry without technique, but neither can you have technique without artistry. The judging system for figure skating needed to be changed; no one is arguing otherwise. But the system imposed in 2004 by the speed skater in charge of the ISU—in hopes of preventing scandals like those at the 1998, and particularly the 2002, Games in Salt Lake City or at the 2013 World Championships at London, Ontario—has only made the problems crystal clear. Giving points for technique but slighting artistry is turning the sport into a monotonous series of cookie-cutter routines. But when a judging system rewards a fall over creativity and flair, what else do you expect? And with the identity of the judges and their scores kept secret, where is the accountability?"

This is clearly a personal standpoint; it has nothing to do with "right or "wrong". Button favors a particular kind of skating and he wants the rules to reward the kind of skating he likes. He is also wrong that the judging system turned the sport into the series of cookie-cutter routines. It didn't. Cookie-cutter routines ALWAYS dominated the sport, under 6.0 and under the IJS. You can't possibly tell me that all the skaters under 6.0 skated memorably, hell, pretty much everyone except top ten is forgettable. Sometimes top ten is forgettable too. The skaters who were able to create memorable routines have always been, and remain a rarity. It has nothing to do with judging systems, it has to do with statistical distribution of interpretive talent in the population of figure skaters, and the fact of the matter is that most people don't have it, or don't have resources to hire choreographers who would create one for them.

And of course you can have technique without artistry.

Also a loud boo for swiping Shekhovtsova but keeping mum about Korean and Canadian skating federation officials sitting on judging panels, during Olympics no less.

 

[pangtongfan]

Thank you Mathman for the reminder. I do remember that back in those days I always felt the Ice Dance discipline result was pre-determined if you will, with very little movement in placements if any at all. Perhaps that was part of my limited interest. It is funny in a strange way that my thinking was similar this year with the men's and ladies events being set up as a coronation of sorts for Patrick and Yuna prior to any skating taking place at the Olympic games; and I must say it truly bothered me. Perhaps that is why I'm not so bothered by the results and all the controversy of the ladies result. The technical merit was outstanding.

The annointing of Chan and Yu Na was by the media, not by the ISU, judges, or people behind the scenes. The media should never be representative of a fixed outcome. In the cases of both, especialy Yu Na, the only expectation was that they would likely outskate their competitors to win. Which obviously was correct as Yu Na clearly did that, and only ended up with a silver medal indeed due to "fixing" but against her, not for her.

 

[pangtongfan]

I would love Uncle Dick as ISU president, if he were physically well enough to even last much longer. The real question is why wasnt a true skating genius like Button ISU president along time ago rather than idiots who know nothing about the sport of figure skating like Ottavio Fraudquanta.

 

[Nadya]

Thank you Mathman for the reminder. I do remember that back in those days I always felt the Ice Dance discipline result was pre-determined if you will, with very little movement in placements if any at all. Perhaps that was part of my limited interest. It is funny in a strange way that my thinking was similar this year with the men's and ladies events being set up as a coronation of sorts for Patrick and Yuna prior to any skating taking place at the Olympic games; and I must say it truly bothered me. Perhaps that is why I'm not so bothered by the results and all the controversy of the ladies result. The technical merit was outstanding.

I don't agree with this, Kim absolutely did not come into 2014 Games as a favorite. One favorite in a very strong field, yes, but absolutely not as a coronation. Perhaps 2010 but certainly not 2014.

Same re: Chan, absolutely not.

 

[Manitou]

I disagree with Button on this:

Speed skating is a sport judged by metrics; figure skating is judged by both metrics and subjective judgment. You can’t have artistry without technique, but neither can you have technique without artistry. The judging system for figure skating needed to be changed; no one is arguing otherwise. But the system imposed in 2004 by the speed skater in charge of the ISU—in hopes of preventing scandals like those at the 1998, and particularly the 2002, Games in Salt Lake City or at the 2013 World Championships at London, Ontario—has only made the problems crystal clear. Giving points for technique but slighting artistry is turning the sport into a monotonous series of cookie-cutter routines. But when a judging system rewards a fall over creativity and flair, what else do you expect? And with the identity of the judges and their scores kept secret, where is the accountability?"

This is clearly a personal standpoint; it has nothing to do with "right or "wrong". Button favors a particular kind of skating and he wants the rules to reward the kind of skating he likes. He is also wrong that the judging system turned the sport into the series of cookie-cutter routines. It didn't. Cookie-cutter routines ALWAYS dominated the sport, under 6.0 and under the IJS. You can't possibly tell me that all the skaters under 6.0 skated memorably, hell, pretty much everyone except top ten is forgettable. Sometimes top ten is forgettable too. The skaters who were able to create memorable routines have always been, and remain a rarity. It has nothing to do with judging systems, it has to do with statistical distribution of interpretive talent in the population of figure skaters, and the fact of the matter is that most people don't have it, or don't have resources to hire choreographers who would create one for them.

And of course you can have technique without artistry.

Also a loud boo for swiping Shekhovtsova but keeping mum about Korean and Canadian skating federation officials sitting on judging panels, during Olympics no less.

I agree 100% with this post.
I am not an expert and if had to sit and discuss the article with Dick Button I would be too dumb to even speak. But somewhere I feel he is wrong. He is standing by his own opinion what figure skating should be: an artistic and subjective competition. Like an art contest. I very strongly disagree. I think the sport should steer into even more measurability. I don't know how, I leave it to the technical experts, but I don't want Costner to win a medal by doing an easy technical routine just because of her shmartistic grimace on her Ave Maria face. That's completely ridiculous. I can pay for it on shows, but not on Olympic events. Olympiads are, and should be, defined by speed, agility, flexibility, coordination and technical difficulty. And mental toughness. That's Olympics.

And lack of US TV prime time has nothing to do with it in my opinion. Of course I was shocked by lack of prime time coverage, but Button is not providing an answer to it. I don't know where the answer is. Maybe the general changing philosophy of TV networks, I don't know. Tennis is also less and less covered, tracks are not covered at all, swimming either, not even mention alpine skiing.
Something is changing on the general scale and Dick's views have nothing to do with it.

 

[Anna K.]

This is clearly a personal standpoint.

I couldn't disagree more.

This is the most political thinking I have met while reading articles about figure skating lately; and I have read a lot. My opinion about FS is in fact exactly the opposite of what Mr Button has but I honestly wish him good luck because this is the first time I feel there is a hope that changes might happen.

What makes person a spokesman and not a one who speaks from a personal standpoint is that s/he is able to express what many people think and what they want to hear. There were many people who felt that standards of beautiful skating were betrayed when Sotnikova won. Mr Button says: yes, they were; speed skaters [bad guys] did it; [vote for us and] we figure skaters [good guys] will bring them back. People within the skating community complain that money is going less. Mr Button shows them the reason: speed skaters [bad guys] took it [vote for us speedily]!
There is an aim for FS community to achieve and an outside enemy to fight. Sounds very well indeed.

Come on. What has that to do with a personal standpoint? That’s all political and I hope it will work. Speedy deserves it

 

[jenaj]

I don't agree with this, Kim absolutely did not come into 2014 Games as a favorite. One favorite in a very strong field, yes, but absolutely not as a coronation. Perhaps 2010 but certainly not 2014.

Same re: Chan, absolutely not.

Yuna was definitely the favorite coming in. Patrick was not. A favorite, not the favorite.

 

[anyanka]

Stéphane Lambiel as the young and energetic vice-president?

I like that idea. He would bring fresh blood and ideas. Plus, he already lives in Switzerland.

Why don't they just split the ISU into two factions so that there are two presidents: one for FS one for SS?

 

[Nadya]

I couldn't disagree more.

This is the most political thinking I have met while reading articles about figure skating lately; and I have read a lot. My opinion about FS is in fact exactly the opposite of what Mr Button has but I honestly wish him good luck because this is the first time I feel there is a hope that changes might happen.

What makes person a spokesman and not a one who speaks from a personal standpoint is that s/he is able to express what many people think and what they want to hear. There were many people who felt that standards of beautiful skating were betrayed when Sotnikova won. Mr Button says: yes, they were; speed skaters [bad guys] did it; [vote for us and] we figure skaters [good guys] will bring them back. People within the skating community complain that money is going less. Mr Button shows them the reason: speed skaters [bad guys] took it [vote for us speedily]!
There is an aim for FS community to achieve and an outside enemy to fight. Sounds very well indeed.

Come on. What has that to do with a personal standpoint? That’s all political and I hope it will work. Speedy deserves it

Perhaps you are right; most political discourse is designed with idiots in mind. It doesn't have to be logical. It just has to appear simple and appeal to the dim. In that case, I am happy to be unaffected.

Also, twenty bucks says nothing will come out of it.

 

[Nadya]

Yuna was definitely the favorite coming in. Patrick was not. A favorite, not the favorite.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I feel Kim lacked momentum of consecutive wins prior to 2014 as she was out for most of that quad. She was like a dusted-off pair of fabulous shoes that haven't seen the light of day for months, if not years. Great to have, yes, favorites? hardly.

In fact, I don't think there WAS a ladies' favorite coming into 2014. The field was strong but I can't say one lady shone much brighter than others.

 

[jenaj]

Among current skaters with the best all-around technique--Kim, Chan, Kostner--all have superior artistry. Dick Button once said that great technique allows the artistry to come through. I do think they are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Nadya]

Among current skaters with the best all-around technique--Kim, Chan, Kostner--all have superior artistry. Dick Button once said that great technique allows the artistry to come through. I do think they are two sides of the same coin.

But you wouldn't say that you can't have technique without artistry, would you?

 

[Meoima]

Yuna was definitely the favorite coming in. Patrick was not. A favorite, not the favorite.

Before Sochi, people thought it would be the shown down betwern Yuna and Mao, and it did not turn out that way. Yuna was the more favorite, of course.
PChan was definitely the more favorite out of all the men field. Hanyu is still too young, and even though he beat PChan at GPF, he was still the less favorite, people were thinking he would never receive such high PCS outside of Japan. So Even his win at GPF did not guarantee him the win at Sochi if PChan did not fail to his nerves. Frankly, Hanyu let the door open, PChan stood before the door, then walked away.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But you wouldn't say that you can't have technique without artistry, would you?

He meant in terms of actual performance. You can't just have technique and not know how to move to music. The technique needs to serve a purpose or else there is no dance.

 

[Nadya]

He meant in terms of actual performance. You can't just have technique and not know how to move to music. The technique needs to serve a purpose or else there is no dance.

But the thing is, no top skaters who successfully rose to the cream of their craft lack artistry per se; it just doesn't happen to be a brand of Button-approved artistry. Besides, he is comparing two extremes. Reality is rarely so black and white. What if you have a stunningly artistic skater who happens to have a simpler technique or a slightly flawed technique, and and amazing yet workaday technician? Who wins? How much simpler does the artist have to be to lose to the technician? How much more complex should technique be to defeat an artiste? By one jump? By three spins? How much? How serious do the artiste's flaws need to be? It's easy to sit in your chair and pontificate of the good ol' days like Button does (and by the way, these days were as rife with corruption as any IJS competitions). When you have to judge actual skaters, it's a constant weighing act of calculation in your head of who does what better and by how much. Sorry, not buying this.

 

[Anna K.]

Perhaps you are right; most political discourse is designed with idiots in mind. It doesn't have to be logical. It just has to appear simple and appeal to the dim. In that case, I am happy to be unaffected.

Also, twenty bucks says nothing will come out of it.

Twenty bucks isn't much
I won't accept it though but only because of his age. If he was just ten years younger I'd bet :yes:

Besides, it’s not nice to call other people “idiots” and “dim” because they don’t seem to support your opinion. I understand that this is common for you but for others it might make an unpleasant reading. Just saying.

 

[Nadya]

Twenty bucks isn't much
I won't accept it though but only because of his age. If he was just ten years younger I'd bet :yes:

Besides, it’s not nice to call other people “idiots” and “dim” because they don’t seem to support your opinion. I understand that this is common for you but for others it might make an unpleasant reading. Just saying.

Read more carefully next time: I didn't say I disagree with political discourse in general, I only said it is generally designed with idiots in mind. Political speech is never aimed at the highest denominator.

You should also know that I am entirely unaffected by the fact that other people may find my writing "unpleasant."