Protocols Are they always correct?

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 17, 2009

After reading so many divergent views on the results of the Men's competition at the Tokyo Invitational, I have been wondering if there has been a change of view of the fans on the validity of the protocols.

Some die hard fans are questioning Protocols more these days whereas in the past, they just accepted them as gospel.

Did he UR that jump? and Downgrades, Edge warnings, Levels, etc.

Seems the posters are questioning the officials at least on the board. It's a release to queston, but it will not change any minds. The Protocols are Gospel.

merrybari · Apr 17, 2009

I know this is knit-picky and semantics, but it doesn't seem to me that anyone is questioning the protocols themselves, but rather the judging/calling that leads to the numbers posted ON the protocols.

Once the numbers are posted they are gospel so far as I know. I've never known of any of them to be changed.

antmanb · Apr 17, 2009

Joesitz said:
After reading so many divergent views on the results of the Men's competition at the Tokyo Invitational, I have been wondering if there has been a change of view of the fans on the validity of the protocols.

Some die hard fans are questioning Protocols more these days whereas in the past, they just accepted them as gospel.

Did he UR that jump? and Downgrades, Edge warnings, Levels, etc.

Seems the posters are questioning the officials at least on the board. It's a release to queston, but it will not change any minds. The Protocols are Gospel.

I don't think there has been a particular change recently. The protocols merely document how the callers called the event and how the judges marked what the callers saw. As far as I know these have not ever been changed (interestingly you brought up in another thread the 4CC where Oda won over Mabee because of a caluclation error. If you look up the protocols there is no sign of an error and Oda's score is still higher than Mabee's).

Fans on and off the board will always discuss the competition and the judging.

The protocols do not come out until after the event is over, that is when, if you query some of the judging, as a fan, you can verify what the judges/callers did and then debate it. This is something that has happened since the first COP competition.

Ant

dorispulaski · Apr 17, 2009

It is not any odder for a one caller to be very tough and another less so. The same sort of differences occur in baseball umpires, basketball refs, and football refs.

Fans of other sports always discuss whether the refs were more apt to turn a blind eye during playoffs, since no one wants the game decided on a penalty.

This year, the dance callers at Worlds seemed to be more forgiving than in the GP season, for example. That doesn't mean the score is wrong or the caller corrupt, as the callers at WTT were very strict with all dancers, while the callers at worlds were more forgiving with all dancers.

It is correct that there is a certain amount of slop comparing between competitions, but it isn't a huge difference. A point here or there.

nylynnr · Apr 17, 2009

There have been (extremely infrequent) occasions when protocols have been changed after a skater's program and/or the event has completed. IIRC this happens most frequently when a member federation or coach files a protest concerning an underrotated jump. Again, IIRC, this occurred a few years back with Caroline Zhang at U.S. nationals.

I just think Doris is spot-on with her analogy. Different callers see things a bit differently just like umpires calling strike zones and of course honest mistakes are sometimes made. IMO it's part of sport and not proof of corruption, conspiracy, bad eyesight, etc.

Mathman · Apr 17, 2009

I do, however, agree with Joe that the average skating fan is gaining confidence in disagreeing with the decisions of the technical specialists that show up in the protocols.

I think when the CoP first came out people were a little bit intimidated by the whole thing.

nylynnr · Apr 19, 2009

You are absolutely right. Skating fans are among the most confident people in the world. It is amazing how some of them always seem to be able to call jumps while watching events on TV or their computers, and have greater faith in their ability than that of trained, former champions working as technical specialists in prime, rinkside seats. While I fully understand incompetent or biased judging, it's always hard for me to imagine technical specialists purposely making bad calls, but at times they are accused nevertheless.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 19, 2009

All trained personnel are equal but some trained personnel are more equal than others. If you are looking for a cure for a disease, you would prefer a doctor who has a proven record for curing that disease over a doctor who had the same training but little experience.

If some fans disagree with the Call, why not? Some of them are sitting right across the judges in the arena. Some of them are former skaters and coaches.

If it disturbs the Tech Panel, then they should make their decisions known on the Jumbothon. Why the secrecy? I am sure of the 3 that one will disagree not unlike the many who disagree from the TV or computer.

Tammi · Apr 19, 2009

I don't know about international competitions, but at the local and even national level, calls can be and are questioned. I think it's primarily done by the coaches and in most situations, the technical staff will make themselves available to answer any questions after the event. Unfortunately, it does sometimes come down to personal opinion. A skater could get the same call all year, but then get a caller who interprets the element differently, or is just a tougher all around caller.

maharbaforwards · Apr 19, 2009

I wish that protocols also were awarded for difficulty. For example, two four level spins may be considered the same, and in base score are the same. But in reality one is still the harder of the two spins and should be rewarded as such. As an example, I really like how Virtue and Moir keep changing their dance spin year after year. This year they added a part in the spin where they do a camel/ sit dance spin variation, she does an illusion, then she goes into a difficult I spin position. This in comparison to say Domanina (sp?) and Shabalin who I noticed had really slooooow spins in nice but pretty unoriginal positions. But they scored the same and basically awarded the same level.

Tammi · Apr 19, 2009

maharbaforwards said:
But they scored the same and basically awarded the same level.

I don't really have a problem with the definition of a level 1, 2, 3 or 4 element. I think where they should be rewarded or downgraded is in the grade of execution. For example, many ladies do a level 4 spiral sequence, but skaters like Caroline Zhang and Alissa Czsniy are usually awarded with +3's from the judges.

In the example you gave, Tessa & Scott actually did score higher than Domnina & Shabalin for their FD spin at Worlds. Good GOE's can add 10 points to a senior free dance score. The key is to have the level, do the element very well and for the judges to mark them accordingly (i.e. no bias).

Protocols Are they always correct?

Joesitz (RIP)

merrybari

antmanb

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

nylynnr

Mathman

nylynnr

Joesitz (RIP)

Tammi

maharbaforwards

Tammi

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