What if...?

Gee · Oct 26, 2009

(skater) has the best program of their life and scores 80+ points (virtually impossible but this is the scenario) at the olympics. Heading into the long program this skater has a 15 point lead because all of contenders bombed and fell on key jumps and missed requirements.
What if the skater suddenly had the worst skate of her life at the long program like fell on 4 jumps but got the rotation and was credited for it. And skaters that placed lower than the skater all had clean programs but because of the difference in the points, the skater who had a flawless short program but a disasterous long program would win. Would you think this skater would deserve the title of the Olympic champion? To the average viewer of figure skating, I would not be happy but I would understand the situation, but is it helping the sport to gain more fans when the winner fell 4 times and still won? What if this happened to the Olympics? What would ISU do?

prettykeys · Oct 26, 2009

Ooh. That'd be a very weird situation. It would be fair according to the rules, but it wouldn't feel quite right.

Blades of Passion · Oct 26, 2009

Hopefully, it would finally force a change with how medals are given in Figure Skating. The Short Program and Long Program should be given separate medals, and then you could have a separate all-around medal as well.

I actually very much hope a scandal like this happens. It seems to be the only way anything ever gets done within ISU.

ImaginaryPogue · Oct 26, 2009

Didn't something like this happen with figures? The dominance of figures allowed skaters (I think it was Beatrix Schuba) who weren't as strong in the free to win despite mistakes in the latter event. And of course figures contributed to Debi Thomas' bronze medal.

Now, while I would feel "off" about it, I don't want a scandal, mainly because I emphatically don't want skating to cater to an increasingly fragmented, idiotic television audience, and that's what any scandal of this sort would do.

Blade of Passion's idea is interesting, but I don't think it's a good idea. I don't believe that the short and long program are different enough to justify different medals. It'd be like swimming giving out multiple golds for the medley event.

Blades of Passion · Oct 26, 2009

The 100 meter and 150 meter backstroke aren't very different either, but they get separate medals (or whatever the exact length is).

Swimming is actually ridiculously excessive with the number of medals that their athletes are able to compete for.

Tinymavy15 · Oct 26, 2009

it would be a real wake up call to ISU and probably some major chances to the system would be made in the the wake of the disgusted fans.

Phoenix347 · Oct 26, 2009

The Short Program and Long Program should be given separate medals, and then you could have a separate all-around medal as well.

Or we could even extend this further and make it like gymnastics. Have an overall medal (SP + LP) and separate medals for individual skills. Individual events could be the following:

Toe jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Loop jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Sachow jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Flip jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Lutz jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Axel jumps: More base points for higher number of turns + GOE. Two passes combined.

Foot work: More base points for higher levels of difficulty + GOE. Two passes combined.

Spirals: More base points for higher levels of difficulty + GOE. Two passes combined.

Spins: More base points for higher levels of difficulty + GOE. Two passes combined.

Combination jumps: More base points for different jumps and number of turns and number of jumps in the combination + GOE.

Team event: Each qualifying county get 3 skaters. Men and ladies separate.

Is it fair that after all that work a figure skater can only get one medal when swimmers like Micheal Phelps can get like 8 gold medals? And all those gymnast with their multiple medals? This way a lot more skaters can go home happy. And perhaps even a rise to a new class of skaters: event specialists. Maybe even combine skating with another discipline, aka winter biathlon: skaters has to perform the SP then shoot a rifle at five targets then skate the LP.

I'm totally joking!!! :chorus:

prettykeys · Oct 26, 2009

Phoenix347 said:
Maybe even combine skating with another discipline, aka winter biathlon: skaters has to perform the SP then shoot a rifle at five targets then skate the LP.

I'm totally joking!!! :chorus:

newvie · Oct 27, 2009

Total score = short + long

Yeah, it would be difficult to accept the winner as a true champion who just showed a wonderful perf at shrt and totally messed up at the long. But, i guess it would be the same feeling for having a champion who screwed up the short and managed to survive at the long?

I would personally prefer having only long program at the competition. Anyway, it's the long program that actually decides the champion. For example, Kim made huge marks at the SP that seemed unbeatable but LP made her bronze medalist at the world championship of 2007.

If we have medalists for each short and long, then there will be another discussion over who is the real champion :no:

Fredegunda · Oct 27, 2009

Interesting question. I think a great deal could depend on how the media chooses to spin the results. If commentators were vocal and outraged, this sentiment could easily transfer to the casual fans. With a more measured approach, however, in the sense of 'well, those are the rules, sigh,' then fan response might be more muted.

Additionally, I think it would hinge greatly on whether the commentators do their jobs and give really good, useful critiques and commentary. Will viewers be able to understand, and therefore, to some point accept, why the results turn out the way they do? I've watched skating on TV in the US, Canada, Norway, and the Netherlands and I've got to say that the NAmerican commentators provide the least useful commentary when it comes to stuff like skating skills, technique, etc. The Dutch and especially Norwegian ice dance commentators are much less likely to merely gush over the beauty of a program and more apt to get into technical details (less of the "they're skating so well!!!" and more of the "they have excellent edges but lack the lilting waltz character").

I don't think that awarding separate medals for short and long programs would cause any confusion as to who is the 'real' champion. Women's gymnastics awards medals in, what, four disciplines? and also crowns an All-Round Champion. Should we dispute whether the uneven bars gold medalist is not really a champion? Anyway, particularly if the SP went back to specific required elements (e.g. each program must contain a triple flip, camel spin combination, and straight-line footwork -- and possibly also required a rhythm/mood for the music) the distinctions between the SP and LP could be such that they become totally different creatures, as it were.

I do think a pure jump contest might have the benefit of forcing skaters to focus on good technique so that we would see less flutzing and lipping.

bondgirl · Oct 27, 2009

Kind of Like Phoenix's Idea...

I know it was ment sarcastically, but I DO wish there were some sort of event for the more athletic aspects of the sport. I know the ideal is a blend of "athleticism and art" ....But some skaters just aren't dancers :no:.....Some sort of jump event skated to background rock music (like Top Jump) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRQ0aWWwA9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2DH408Misc
Looks like it was held in 2002. (A just for fun competition?) Too bad it is not a "real" event.:disapp:... Might even get more boys interested in the sport.....

PftJump · Oct 27, 2009

Gee said:
(skater) has the best program of their life and scores 80+ points (virtually impossible but this is the scenario) at the olympics. Heading into the long program this skater has a 15 point lead because all of contenders bombed and fell on key jumps and missed requirements.
What if the skater suddenly had the worst skate of her life at the long program like fell on 4 jumps but got the rotation and was credited for it. And skaters that placed lower than the skater all had clean programs but because of the difference in the points, the skater who had a flawless short program but a disasterous long program would win. Would you think this skater would deserve the title of the Olympic champion? To the average viewer of figure skating, I would not be happy but I would understand the situation, but is it helping the sport to gain more fans when the winner fell 4 times and still won? What if this happened to the Olympics? What would ISU do?

I really don't want to see the situation like that...
We see already similar situation at 2008 World.
Mao fell on her 3A and do nothing for almost 30 seconds on her Free program and still Won the GOLD!!
I Hate such a situation.

SerpentineSteps · Oct 27, 2009

Phoenix347 said:
Maybe even combine skating with another discipline, aka winter biathlon: skaters has to perform the SP then shoot a rifle at five targets then skate the LP.

I feel like this is the way to go. I'm thinking SP, golfing, FS, and basket-weaving in that order. Then Tiger Woods would truly be in his element.

janetfan · Oct 27, 2009

PftJump said:
I really don't want to see the situation like that...
We see already similar situation at 2008 World.
Mao fell on her 3A and do nothing for almost 30 seconds on her Free program and still Won the GOLD!!
I Hate such a situation.

Oh please!
I hope someone else will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is a time limit for resuming a program after a fall.
Mao was down for maybe 10 seconds or less, and clearly within the rules of continuing.

I am a Yuna fan, but Mao appeared stunned after her fall and I thought the way she regrouped and finished her program was quite impressive and even memorable .

That brave performance made me a Mao fan too. I am sure many skating fans appreciated how Mao was able to shake off what appeared to be a disatrous start and skated so beautifully to win her first WC.

OHgal · Oct 27, 2009

Phoenix347 said:
Maybe even combine skating with another discipline, aka winter biathlon: skaters has to perform the SP then shoot a rifle at five targets then skate the LP.

I'm totally joking!!! :chorus:

Oh, I LOVE this!!! :rofl:

Guaranteed to send TV ratings thru the roof! :laugh:

But seriously -- I'd love to see jumping made into a separate event. Limiting the jumps that can be done in the SP and LP would cut down on the wear-and-tear on the skaters' bodies, and would open up a whole new medal opportunity for those who truly excel at the jumps. Plus it would be fun to watch!

Well, maybe not as fun as the winter biathlon Phoenix proposed.....:agree:

Kwanford Wife · Oct 27, 2009

Gee said:
(skater) has the best program of their life and scores 80+ points (virtually impossible but this is the scenario) at the olympics. Heading into the long program this skater has a 15 point lead because all of contenders bombed and fell on key jumps and missed requirements.
What if the skater suddenly had the worst skate of her life at the long program like fell on 4 jumps but got the rotation and was credited for it. And skaters that placed lower than the skater all had clean programs but because of the difference in the points, the skater who had a flawless short program but a disasterous long program would win. Would you think this skater would deserve the title of the Olympic champion? To the average viewer of figure skating, I would not be happy but I would understand the situation, but is it helping the sport to gain more fans when the winner fell 4 times and still won? What if this happened to the Olympics? What would ISU do?

I don't know what the ISU would do - probably create yet another method of ruining the sport but I know what I would do:

I would probably stop watching skating on television and even worse, stop buying tickets, merchandise and donating to the skaters' fund...

wonderlen3000 · Oct 27, 2009

PftJump said:
I really don't want to see the situation like that...
We see already similar situation at 2008 World.
Mao fell on her 3A and do nothing for almost 30 seconds on her Free program and still Won the GOLD!!
I Hate such a situation.

Please, can we get over this already. Mao only regroup for about 10 second and the whole media and bots are making like it's a big one minute. She fell, she get up, and skate again. There is no rule in the book that said, once a skater fell, he/she have to get up and right away into flapping arms or legs so it will look like it's part of the program cherography. As long as a skater stay on the feet and skate acroos the rink.

wonderlen3000 · Oct 27, 2009

But regarding the discussion, I think 10-15 points cushion are more likely to happen in ladies event than in men. In men i wouldn't see the gap will be more than 5 points with all the men being so close.

Ladies, i can see Yuna taking 10-15 points lead, if all the other skaters just have subpar SP (although I am hoping it wouldn't be the case, the skaters are close within a few points like Torino). A fall will only cost you 4 points, including the deduction so, a skater can still win with one or two fall.

The only concern is at the end of the day, will the OGMedalist will be remembered for her OGM or the fall(s).

Maybe they should make a team event too, just like Gymnastics. It's not fair that men can win up to 8 medals and womean up to 6 medals compare to FS.

newvie · Oct 27, 2009

Fredegunda said:
I don't think that awarding separate medals for short and long programs would cause any confusion as to who is the 'real' champion. Women's gymnastics awards medals in, what, four disciplines? and also crowns an All-Round Champion. Should we dispute whether the uneven bars gold medalist is not really a champion? Anyway, particularly if the SP went back to specific required elements (e.g. each program must contain a triple flip, camel spin combination, and straight-line footwork -- and possibly also required a rhythm/mood for the music) the distinctions between the SP and LP could be such that they become totally different creatures, as it were.

I think uneven parallel bar is very different from balance beam...? I don't see any similarity between gymnastics programs and those of figure skating.

For me, SP is about the same as LP. You have to have jumps, spins, step sequences, spirals (for ladies) for both of them. The differences are the time and frequency of each element executed. I think you just need more stamina and larger array of jumps for LP. Therefore, if each sp and lp has a winner, there could be a discussion over who's the real champion, as both programs are composed of the same elements.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, for me total score=sp+lp that I wouldn't be disgusted even if the champion is the one who did good in sp and bad in lp. It's like being excellent for 1~1.5 minutes and than horrible for remaining 2.5 minutes in a LP program.

Mathman · Oct 27, 2009

The scenario of the original poster is extreme, but on a lesser scale this happens all the time. Someone brought up 2008 worlds, where Yu-na Kim rightly won the free skate, but was too far behind (5th place) after the short program to win overall.

What generated the most controversy at that event, though, was the way Carolina Kostner managed to grab enough points to get third in the free and the silver overall. Her long program was attrocious, but she did fully rotate all the jumps in a packed technical program, putting her ahead of audience favorite Yukari Nakano, who gave a gorgeous skate.

What if...?

Gee

prettykeys

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

ImaginaryPogue

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Phoenix347

prettykeys

newvie

Fredegunda

bondgirl

PftJump

SerpentineSteps

janetfan

Match Penalty

OHgal

Kwanford Wife

wonderlen3000

wonderlen3000

newvie

Mathman

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