Canadian First Nations hosts want to meet with Russian skaters

dorispulaski said:

Did the CBC story mention V&M? What tack did they take on the story?

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V&M are using a Spanish Theme for their Original dance. So far no Spanish speaking people living here in BC or rest of Canada have objected. The whole thing is ridiculous and does not need this huge media focus. Our First Nations (or aboriginal) people are probably upset because this program does not reflect their art work or costumes. Our whole Olympics here in BC has native overtones because we are using some of their lands to host the games. I guess the Russian ice dance team should have contacted VANOC before they chose their theme.


Here is the article from TSN.ca

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=27440.html#skaters+native+dance+routine+draws

oxade21 said:

In all official documents it is described as "aboriginal" there is no mention any specific region. In any case, personally I do not care if they offend any aboriginal group. This is ice dance, not Amnesty International dance show.

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Nice try, but too many people have the screenshots and cached copies of all the original stuff that D/S and Linichuk themselves put out on this dance a few months ago. The references to "Australian" have all been conveniently sanitized very recently, but funny thing about the Internet age....it's just really hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle after it's escaped. You have a nice day.

Kunstrijdster said:

Now all that we need is a referee who would object to this dance on the grounds of being against the rules

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don't start introducing new concepts to the refs, they might actually start playing by the rules and we can't have that!

bigsisjiejie said:

Nice try, but too many people have the screenshots and cached copies of all the original stuff that D/S and Linichuk themselves put out on this dance a few months ago. The references to "Australian" have all been conveniently sanitized very recently, but funny thing about the Internet age....it's just really hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle after it's escaped. You have a nice day.

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Isn't it interesting that you people actually screencap their blogs and messages? LOL, the smear campaigners will stop at nothing. Good luck with your try!

Kunstrijdster said:

Now all that we need is a referee who would object to this dance on the grounds of being against the rules

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Well, ineed, if none of the referees identified any problem, why would they listen to internet board.

i love to skate said:

But now the problem is that they are saying it wasn't supposed to be an Australian Aboriginal dance - it was "just a dance from a thousand years ago". So why are they skating to Australian Aboriginal music if it wasn't supposed to be Australian?

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As I understand it, it isn't Australian Aboriginal music. The singer is South Indian? I dunno, I think the best thing to do now is lose the face paint and most of the leaves. It seems like it's too late to do anything else.

comment

I fail to see how this is a smear campaign. D/S have (most likely unintentionally) offended an awful lot of people by their actions and by their seeming lack of sensitivity to that offense. They are weeks away from taking the biggest stage in the world, the Olympics. That's news.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583736,00.html

No, it's not a smear campaign. Linichuk / D/S put together a poorly researched dance, with ,as I understand it, less demanding choreograhy than others at their level (which has been the most egregiously overmarked at their Nationals compared to any of their competitors ) ,hoping to distract from these shortcomings with wild costumes and by virtue of being different.They probably thought that the dance and music was so obscure , no-one would know the difference.In doing so, they've trampled on the rules..As I believe they do in their free dance with the belt lifts.

Our sympathies should be with skaters like, say, Faiella and Scali who skated beautifully at Euros ..and kept within the rules.

Hopefully the do refuse to meet with the Native party and keep everything as is. Olympic skating could use a good international scandal. Brings in lots of casual interest.

I do think this is a smear campaign. Why on earth are they singling out the DomShabs when there have been many ice dance teams who have done free dances that could be construed as "insensitive." I think Winkler and Lohse skated to African American spirituals and people were all up in arms because a German team dared to skate to slave spirituals. When A&P incorporated pieces of Martin Luther King speech in their SLC free dance people had to weigh in with their opinions. The Duschenays skated to African music in Calgary and that program was not based on any factual African dance- just their interpretation of an African theme with the brother and sister acting as "savages".

Now DomShab's program is awful and the costumes are horrendous, but to single them out as being insensitive when there are a slew of ice dance teams butchering native folk dances with tacky costumes seems like sabotage to me.

Maybe if the ISU wants to avoid insensitivity, they should just tell skaters to choose programs reflecting their own heritage/country and be done with it.

Do you believe that the Australian Aboriginal community are complaining to smear Domnina and Shabalin?

soogar said:

I do think this is a smear campaign. Why on earth are they singling out the DomShabs when there have been many ice dance teams who have done free dances that could be construed as "insensitive." I think Winkler and Lohse skated to African American spirituals and people were all up in arms because a German team dared to skate to slave spirituals. When A&P incorporated pieces of Martin Luther King speech in their SLC free dance people had to weigh in with their opinions. The Duschenays skated to African music in Calgary and that program was not based on any factual African dance- just their interpretation of an African theme with the brother and sister acting as "savages".

Now DomShab's program is awful and the costumes are horrendous, but to single them out as being insensitive when there are a slew of ice dance teams butchering native folk dances with tacky costumes seems like sabotage to me.

Maybe if the ISU wants to avoid insensitivity, they should just tell skaters to choose programs reflecting their own heritage/country and be done with it.

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Who are "they" that you think singled out the couple?

soogar said:

I do think this is a smear campaign. Why on earth are they singling out the DomShabs when there have been many ice dance teams who have done free dances that could be construed as "insensitive." I think Winkler and Lohse skated to African American spirituals and people were all up in arms because a German team dared to skate to slave spirituals. When A&P incorporated pieces of Martin Luther King speech in their SLC free dance people had to weigh in with their opinions. The Duschenays skated to African music in Calgary and that program was not based on any factual African dance- just their interpretation of an African theme with the brother and sister acting as "savages".

Now DomShab's program is awful and the costumes are horrendous, but to single them out as being insensitive when there are a slew of ice dance teams butchering native folk dances with tacky costumes seems like sabotage to me.

Maybe if the ISU wants to avoid insensitivity, they should just tell skaters to choose programs reflecting their own heritage/country and be done with it.

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In fact, the ISU "strongly suggested" that skaters use folk dances from their own culture or country. The didn't make it mandatory exactly because some countries don't have a distinct folk dance tradition, or have folk dances that are difficult, if not impossible to translate to the ice.

As to the previous examples you gave (Winkler and Lohse, Anissina and Peizerat, and Duchesnays), all of the programs you cited are free dances. And free dances are free (well almost free...maybe half price?). :lol: The Duchesnays did not skate to African music at all. They did a program they called Savage Rites (I wasn't able to find the composer of the music. Does someone here know?) however, it wasn't African music. The second key thing about those programs (and the complaints about them) is that those complaints were not lodged by the people who were entitled to be offended by them with appropriate authorities. In this case, we have Aborigines lodging a formal complaint with the Russian ambassador, and the First Nations group who are *co sponsors* of the Vancouver games wanting to straighten things out.



In any case, original dances are not free. They have prescribed "rhythms". Grades of GOE are given and taken away for not having the character of the rhythm you use. So are some of the PCS components affected by the ability to interpret and project the character of your rhythm. There are huge sanctions for not having the music right. These sanctions are seldom invoked, however, one of the components goes from a hit of -1 down to -9 for getting some of the music wrong for the rhythm prescribed. 10% wrong music is -1 and so forth. When the folk dance you choose is Australian Aborigine, at least some of the music should be Australian Aborigine. In the case of this dance, the only thing Australian about the music is that some digeridoo can be heard here and there. The program deserves to get whacked at least -5 on that PCS component alone. Maybe more.

dorispulaski said:

In fact, the ISU "strongly suggested" that skaters use folk dances from their own culture or country. The didn't make it mandatory exactly because some countries don't have a distinct folk dance tradition, or have folk dances that are difficult, if not impossible to translate to the ice.

As to the previous examples you gave (Winkler and Lohse, Anissina and Peizerat, and Duchesnays), all of the programs you cited are free dances. And free dances are free (well almost free...maybe half price?). :lol: The Duchesnays did not skate to African music at all. They did a program they called Savage Rites (I wasn't able to find the composer of the music. Does someone here know?) however, it wasn't African music. The second key thing about those programs (and the complaints about them) is that those complaints were not lodged by the people who were entitled to be offended by them with appropriate authorities. In this case, we have Aborigines lodging a formal complaint with the Russian ambassador, and the First Nations group who are *co sponsors* of the Vancouver games wanting to straighten things out.


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So you can offend a native group in the free dance and not the original dance? I don't see how a panel of ISU judges from nations that typically participate in skating events (ie not Aborigine, African etc) is going to judge the authenticity of a folk dance from a non-represented area. I'm not discussing the merits and weaknesses of DomShab's crappy OD. I don't like it but all the press and the "formal complaint" about the offensiveness of their dance does strike me as a smear campaign to help further the cause of DomShab's competitors. Wouldn't surprise me if it came out that an entity that is connected with DomShab's competitors encouraged this group to file a complaint to create negative press. Ice dance seems to be a particularly cutthroat and unethical sport.

soogar said:

I don't like it but all the press and the "formal complaint" about the offensiveness of their dance does strike me as a smear campaign to help further the cause of DomShab's competitors. Wouldn't surprise me if it came out that an entity that is connected with DomShab's competitors encouraged this group to file a complaint to create negative press. Ice dance seems to be a particularly cutthroat and unethical sport.

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You have got to be kidding.:disapp: It is the Australian Aboriginals who have made the formal complaint. Do you really think that the other top ice dance teams have nothing else to do than to somehow contact the Aboriginal people, tell them about the dance, and say that they should make a formal complaint? I mean really, they are all training for the Olympics, competiting at Nationals, and getting excited about the Olympics. They don't have time to worry about D/S - who if they skate like they did at Europeans - are going to be blown out of the water in Vancouver.

i love to skate said:

You have got to be kidding.:disapp: It is the Australian Aboriginals who have made the formal complaint. Do you really think that the other top ice dance teams have nothing else to do than to somehow contact the Aboriginal people, tell them about the dance, and say that they should make a formal complaint? I mean really, they are all training for the Olympics, competiting at Nationals, and getting excited about the Olympics. They don't have time to worry about D/S - who if they skate like they did at Europeans - are going to be blown out of the water in Vancouver.

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Because Australian Aborigines are such huge skating fans :sheesh:. I said an entity related to the top competitors- can be a coach or a federation- which would have PLENTY of interest in smearing the DomShabs and mucking up the Russian politicking machine.

soogar said:

Because Australian Aborigines are such huge skating fans :sheesh:. I said an entity related to the top competitors- can be a coach or a federation- which would have PLENTY of interest in smearing the DomShabs and mucking up the Russian politicking machine.

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Hello stereotyping :no: Is it not possible that Aborginals are skating fans?? Australian Aboriginals are upset because D/S look like they are making fun of the culture, they did not contact anyone to get help with choreography, they are using inaccurate representations of the costuming - the women DO NOT wear body paint and red is only worn for ceremonial celebrations - two big no-nos.

Honestly, I don't think D/S are going to be a threat for the Olympics. V/M, B/A, D/W are going to beat them handily if they go clean so no I don't think a coach or federation would take the time to start a "smear campaign".

i love to skate said:

Hello stereotyping :no: Is it not possible that Aborginals are skating fans?? Australian Aboriginals are upset because D/S look like they are making fun of the culture, they did not contact anyone to get help with choreography, they are using inaccurate representations of the costuming - the women DO NOT wear body paint and red is only worn for ceremonial celebrations - two big no-nos.

Honestly, I don't think D/S are going to be a threat for the Olympics. V/M, B/A, D/W are going to beat them handily if they go clean so no I don't think a coach or federation would take the time to start a "smear campaign".

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They maybe the skating fans, but not fans enough to screencap message boards You can see the originators of this faux scandal from so far away. Shame on you, people.

Yes, I think this conspiracy theory is a step too far..of course there can be aboriginal ice dance fans..good grief ! Let's not bend over backwards to make excuses here..

Doris has (kindly) pointed out the details of the music rules..if there had been even a half-hearted attempt to abide by them on the part of the Russian federation..this routine would never have made it to the ice. I'm sure they cannot have been unaware of what programs their top contenders were planning. I mean, this is not a borderline case. It's not just questionable as to whether it pushes the boundaries a bit...it displays a flagrant disregard for the guidelines. Just considering the music alone..if a team called their dance a tango , but used music so far removed from any of the styles of tango we know..do we think the music rules would not be suddenly enforced ? They would be trotted out in a heartbeat. Why should they be overlooked here?

If it was a free dance it would still be distasteful ,but they would be within their rights to claim it was just an interpretation of a generic aboriginal dance . I still wouldn't like it , but it wouldn't be breaking so many rules...And we should never forget the all the athletes ,all the way down the line, whose standings are affected when this kind of thing is rewarded.

Who told on them ?..oh please.
Do you not think that perhaps some of the people who consulted with the Australian team might have had enough interest to be following this, after the Russians announced it ?..However it came to the Aboriginal community's attention , it still disregards the rules of the sport.

There is a thing called defamation.. but this isn't it . To be defamation , the charges would have to be untrue , and unfortunately they're all too true..To be able to sue, some law would have to be broken...ISU rules only (supposedly) govern what goes on in the sport. They are laws of no land..If you're wating for a lawsuit ,you'll be disapointed.

colleen o'neill said:

There is a thing called defamation.. but this isn't it . To be defamation , the charges would have to be untrue , and unfortunately they're all too true..To be able to sue, some law would have to be broken...ISU rules only (supposedly) govern what goes on in the sport. They are laws of no land..If you're wating for a lawsuit ,you'll be disapointed.

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What is true? what are the charges? let's figure that first? Defamation does not apply to ISU rules defamation applies to claim that these people are DELIBERATELY trying to offend someone, to claims that they are racist and so on. ISU already made up their mind about this dance. The dance has been discussed at judges session in Tallinn and no rules were found to be broken.So let's see how this one goes.