The Judging Controversy Thread

Mathman said:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but some things are just common sense. Here are one judge's marks for Adelina's long program.

+3
+3
+3
+3
+3
-1
+3
+3
+3
+3
+2
+3
9.50
9.50
9.75
9.75
9.75

That is an insult to the concept of "judging." If I were that judge, I would, immediately after the contest, rush over to the skater, give her a big hug, and shout, "We did it! We did it!"

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http://vimeo.com/89457478
3 minutes 30 seconds was all it took if you check out the Italian commentary footage.
See towards end of the clip. Alla is with another replacement judge there, possibly Helene Cucuphat of France? Someone confirm or deny please.

It is perhaps no coincidence BOTH of them were also on the judge panel responsible for Sotnikova's 9 points PCS inflation at European Championships, along with Julia's PCS inflation. Both judged them here again at Sochi for another round of huge PCS inflation. The only way to build momentum in PCS is to have the same pair of judges artificial boost it through out the season or their career.

I bet at least one of them were responsible for Kim's

2
1
1
2
2
1
1
1
1
1
1
2

8.5
7.75 (!!)
8.75
8.25
8.75

I found Cucuphat judged Adelina 3 times at her most important career wins including the Olympics. Must be nice to have her own personal judge. She judged Adelina and Yulia before at World Junior 2012 (they placed 3rd and 1st) along with the 3rd replacement judge from Estonia Zanna Kulik. 2 same judges responsible for their biggest career wins, judged them here again at Sochi.

Cucuphat also judged Adelina at Junior worlds 2011 where Adelina gained her Junior World Title - Her most prestigious title so far, apart from Sochi Olympics.

Mathematically you need at least 2 judges on the panel plus the technical judge to swing the score under IJS. 4 will seal it for sure. To put all the controversy to rest, ISU can simply revealed all the scoring from the judges and prove they have nothing to hide and that there are no biases. The reason they won't is obvious. The current system is faulty because only ISU (or those on the inner circle) knows their track history and scoring trends, so they have enough knowledge to determine a likely outcome if they choose it. Without anonymity, the judges are forced to act honest and fair.

I actually wonder if this has been planned for a while now looking back on all these rules and points changes post Vancouver that seems to point to one thing, to disadvantage the one without the 3loop and good techniques. Considering 4 years later, the sole reason Kim lost despite skated flawlessly turned out to be: she does not do 3loop. Must be sweet to take revenge on Kim, since without her, Russia may have their 3 spots and podium 1, 2, 3.

I♥Yuna;890561 said:

I would single out columns 2, 5, 6, and 7 as part of the strategy... (and mind you, I'm not totally convinced that it was cheating. It could just as well be a combination of psychology and home-field advantage)...

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The thing is that the PCS scores were way too out of whack. When judges give 9.75 for scores, they have to understand the historical significance of assigning scores that high to a skater who never put up scores like that before. The same is true for the whopping ten 3 GOEs from that one judge and eight from anouther. It's one thing to give a boost to a skater, but a 9.75 is as high as you go without declaring virtual perfection and Adelina received marks in interpretation and choreography that made me cringe. Additionally, when Yuna received 7.75 from that one judge on T-LF-M... It's really all quite beyond suspicious.

I♥Yuna;890561 said:

I would single out columns 2, 5, 6, and 7 as part of the strategy... (and mind you, I'm not totally convinced that it was cheating. It could just as well be a combination of psychology and home-field advantage)...

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Or just being smart about which panel of judges to pick to determine the most likely result. Technically it is not 'cheating' if it is done within the rules, that is the problem.

The rules and the flaws of the system were kept for a reason, and yes they need to be fixed to ensure these sort of manipulation shouldn't happen again. However the current administrator of ISU have no interest to fix the system for obviously reasons, thus the sport is stuck on a limbo.

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I can’t contribute any technical knowledge to the discussions but Russian is my first language so that comes useful sometimes. Seeing that we are over 200 pages on this thread and no end in view, I decided to check what people on other side of the ‘barricade’ think, off I went and read all 94 pages of a ladies Olympics LP thread on one of Russian fs forums. It made an interesting read! I was pleasantly surprised that there is a lot of warm affection towards American skaters, Gracie & Polina especially, Ashley too. Carolina is simply adored by most, Yuna is well respected but not particularly liked. Mao much loved. But to business! Comparing what people write here and ‘there’ about judging controversy I can report one major difference: most people here suspect biased judging in Sochi, but all people there take it as a fact. There is universal acceptance that Adelina’s win was helped by Lakernik & Co. Opinions on whether she did deserve to win differ somewhat but that it was indeed a home cooked win not doubted at all! Even those who think that she did deserve OGM, admit that it is forever tainted and not as enjoyable a win as it could be, given this is the First OGM for Russian ladies. Do we need to say more? One more observation, general public in Russia ie people who watch FS once in four years were more upset that Julia did badly than that Adelina won. Julia has become a people’s princess these Olympics, the nation took her into their hearts, she is Julie (affectionate from of Julia) to all… I don’t think Adelina ever will be as popular and it doesn’t help that she comes across as rather arrogant in her interviews. Well, that’s about all I wanted to say. And yes, I am not Julia’s fan nor Yuna’s or Carolina’s. I do dislike Adelina’s style of skating but wishing her well all the same.

melissa_ire said:

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I can’t contribute any technical knowledge to the discussions but Russian is my first language so that comes useful sometimes. Seeing that we are over 200 pages on this thread and no end in view, I decided to check what people on other side of the ‘barricade’ think, off I went and read all 94 pages of a ladies Olympics LP thread on one of Russian fs forums. It made an interesting read! I was pleasantly surprised that there is a lot of warm affection towards American skaters, Gracie & Polina especially, Ashley too. Carolina is simply adored by most, Yuna is well respected but not particularly liked. Mao much loved. But to business! Comparing what people write here and ‘there’ about judging controversy I can report one major difference: most people here suspect biased judging in Sochi, but all people there take it as a fact. There is universal acceptance that Adelina’s win was helped by Lakernik & Co. Opinions on whether she did deserve to win differ somewhat but that it was indeed a home cooked win not doubted at all! Even those who think that she did deserve OGM, admit that it is forever tainted and not as enjoyable a win as it could be, given this is the First OGM for Russian ladies. Do we need to say more? One more observation, general public in Russia ie people who watch FS once in four years were more upset that Julia did badly than that Adelina won. Julia has become a people’s princess these Olympics, the nation took her into their hearts, she is Julie (affectionate from of Julia) to all… I don’t think Adelina ever will be as popular and it doesn’t help that she comes across as rather arrogant in her interviews. Well, that’s about all I wanted to say. And yes, I am not Julia’s fan nor Yuna’s or Carolina’s. I do dislike Adelina’s style of skating but wishing her well all the same.

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Since you're quoting FSO, I hope you will make it excruciatingly clear that most "knowledgeable fans" on that resource believe Carolina should have had gold, Adelina silver and Kim bronze.

Hamil said:

New turning point. This controversy will not end soon.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-487676/

Will it trigger the end of figure skate? This might deserve a new thread of discussion.

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"The Korean Olympic Committee named the judges it questioned, including Yuri Balkov, a Ukranian, who was suspended for trying to fix the 1998 Olympic ice-dance competition. Alla Shekhovtseva, a Russian married to the head of the Russian figure skating federation, was also named. Ms. Shekhovtseva was shown hugging Sotnikova on camera after her performance, the statement said."

I find it incredibly, deliciously ironic that the composition of the panel was well known to all and sundry before the event, yet it only became a problem when judges delivered the scores people disliked.

Clearly, people don't mind that "questionable" individuals serve on panels. They only mind that the scores should be what they want, whoever delivers them.

If Kim won, do you think anyone would care that the panel included Balkov and Shekhovtsova? Do you?

Balkov is corrupt. But people who complain about his scores post-event are hypocrites.

Thank you for cntributing, melisa_ire. Welcome!

Nadya said:

"The Korean Olympic Committee named the judges it questioned, including Yuri Balkov, a Ukranian, who was suspended for trying to fix the 1998 Olympic ice-dance competition. Alla Shekhovtseva, a Russian married to the head of the Russian figure skating federation, was also named. Ms. Shekhovtseva was shown hugging Sotnikova on camera after her performance, the statement said."

I find it incredibly, deliciously ironic that the composition of the panel was well known to all and sundry before the event, yet it only became the problem when judges delivered the scores people disliked. Clearly, people don't mind that "questionable" individuals serve on panels. They only mind that the scores should be what they want, whoever delivers them.

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I guess if we find out a judge ruling in a corporate manslaughter case was the best friend of a board member after a ruling is made, then we shouldn't be upset since we didn't investigate his history appropriately. This seems logical.

Nadya said:

"The Korean Olympic Committee named the judges it questioned, including Yuri Balkov, a Ukranian, who was suspended for trying to fix the 1998 Olympic ice-dance competition. Alla Shekhovtseva, a Russian married to the head of the Russian figure skating federation, was also named. Ms. Shekhovtseva was shown hugging Sotnikova on camera after her performance, the statement said."

I find it incredibly, deliciously ironic that the composition of the panel was well known to all and sundry before the event, yet it only became a problem when judges delivered the scores people disliked.

Clearly, people don't mind that "questionable" individuals serve on panels. They only mind that the scores should be what they want, whoever delivers them.

If Kim won, do you think anyone would care that the panel included Balkov and Shekhovtsova? Do you?

Balkov is corrupt. But people who complain about his scores post-event are hypocrites.

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Yeah, we're foolish to expect that a judge will do their job fairly. As Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over, and then expecting different results."

Nadya said:

"Clearly, people don't mind that "questionable" individuals serve on panels. They only mind that the scores should be what they want, whoever delivers them.

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No, I don't think so. This is figure skating -- we are resigned to judging shenanigans.

What was shocking after the fact was how brazen and extreme the shenanigans were this time around.

I think a good case can be made for the claim that Adelina skated the best and deserved to win the gold medal. (Carolina, too.) I do not think any case at all, good or bad, can excuse some of the judges' marks.

Mathman said:

No, I don't think so. This is figure skating -- we are resigned to judging shenanigans.

What was shocking after the fact was how brazen and extreme the shenanigans were this time around.

I think a good case can be made for the claim that Adelina skated the best and deserved to win the gold medal. (Carolina, too.) I do not think any case at all, good or bad, can excuse some of the judges' marks.

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I think it's fair to say that people question some of the judging in this event. What I find objectionable is that the objections are made for the wrong reason.

If Balkov is believed to be corrupt, people should be objecting to his service on the panel REGARDLESS of the scores he delivers.

If Shekhovtsova is believed to have a conflict of interest, people should be objecting to her service on the panel REGARDLESS of the scores she delivers.

Otherwise, people are de facto saying: "I don't mind that one of the judges is corrupt and the other has a conflict of interest, as long as they judge the way I like, I have no problem."

Nadya said:

Since you're quoting FSO, I hope you will make it excruciatingly clear that most "knowledgeable fans" on that resource believe Carolina should have had gold, Adelina silver and Kim bronze.

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yes, thats true but I just tried to keep to the point ie judging controversy matter. And I wouldn't like to be thought quoting exactly from FSO, just sharing my impressions from what I read

I was under the impression that the scores posted were random as well as anonymous. Is that true?

NYscorp6 said:

I was under the impression that the scores posted were random as well as anonymous. Is that true?

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For each skater separately the judges are listed in random order. In each column all the marks are from the same judge, for that skater. Then for the next skater, the judges are listed in a different order. We can tell that there was one judge who gave straight high marks to Sotnikova and that there was one judge who gave straight low marks to Kim, but we cannot tell whether that was the same judge or not.

Mathman said:

Thank you for cntributing, melisa_ire. Welcome!

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Many thanks! Welcome from you especially nice to get - I always like your posts (and maths!).

Nadya said:

If Balkov is believed to be corrupt, people should be objecting to his service on the panel REGARDLESS of the scores he delivers.

If Shekhovtsova is believed to have a conflict of interest, people should be objecting to her service on the panel REGARDLESS of the scores she delivers.

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There is a big difference between "corrupt" and "conflict of interest". A country should not send a corrupt judge to an event, and the background of the UKR judge is certainly sketchy. However, to a certain extent any judge will have a "conflict of interest" because the skating community is so small. For the most part a judge is going to rank skaters from his/her own country higher, and this is why we have panels with judges from different countries. I would expect any judge from Russia, regardless of whether she is married to someone important or hugs the athletes, to place Russian skaters high, as I would expect a US judge to do (i.e. Inman judging Evan) or a South Korean judge to have Yuna ranked high.

gmyers said:

Nefarious is a serious allegation that needs proof! There is no proof of anything. It's now March 20th! Some People have been searching for proof for a month now and there is nothing. This effort to strip sotnikova of her gold needs proof and evidense that anyone did anything wrong or made any mistakes. With step sequences or jump rotation or real proof and evidence that sotnikovas pcs and goe were wrong according to the rules.

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sit down grandma. csi is starting and your 48 ounce soda is waiting.

drivingmissdaisy said:

There is a big difference between "corrupt" and "conflict of interest". A country should not send a corrupt judge to an event, and the background of the UKR judge is certainly sketchy. However, to a certain extent any judge will have a "conflict of interest" because the skating community is so small. For the most part a judge is going to rank skaters from his/her own country higher, and this is why we have panels with judges from different countries. I would expect any judge from Russia, regardless of whether she is married to someone important or hugs the athletes, to place Russian skaters high, as I would expect a US judge to do (i.e. Inman judging Evan) or a South Korean judge to have Yuna ranked high.

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I agree with that, but my point is that it is hypocritical to members of the judging panel post-event, based on information well known pre-event, because they didn't score your preferred candidate the way you like.

I also agree that all judges, coaches and skaters from a particular country know each other. Of course they do!

karkit said:

sit down grandma. csi is starting and your 48 ounce soda is waiting.

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Your soda is waiting

Mathman said:

For each skater separately the judges are listed in random order. In each column all the marks are from the same judge, for that skater. Then for the next skater, the judges are listed in a different order. We can tell that there was one judge who gave straight high marks to Sotnikova and that there was one judge who gave straight low marks to Kim, but we cannot tell whether that was the same judge or not.

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Aside from the 3-2-2 which got -GOE from every judge, Adelina only had 11 marks total that weren't +2 or +3. That judge really did love Adelina but only a bit more than the judges in her columns 2, 4, 5, and 6. The rest of the judges had her solidly +2. In fact, eight judges gave Adelina 3 marks or fewer below +2. To compare, only three judges gave Yuna 3 marks or fewer below +2. It was a well skated program.