The Judging Controversy Thread

Nadya · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Tara is jealous of someone like Yu Na Kim since she is considered a much greater champion than she ever was. She was probably thrilled to see her lose, and feel even more vastly inferior than she already did (although in reality Yu Na is an even bigger legend and considered even greater with her bogus false loss than if she had won her 2nd OGM so her feelings are misguided). She knows someone like Sotnikova will never be considered half the skater Tara was, so she doesnt give a darn about her victory (never mind credability of skating judging and skating, self obsessed Tara would never care about those trivial things now that she is retired ). Tara always had an inferiority complex and was jealous of people seen as better than her. That is why she and her crazy mother were always so jealous and obsessed with Kwan. Just beating Kwan in a few competitions was not enough, she could never accept that to the public and to the Dick Button's of the world Kwan was still a much greater, more impactful, and far more popular skater than she was. It persisted for years with her own mom moaning endlessly about Michelle being given the honor of awarding the Team USA jacket to the president at the 2002 Games saying "what an awful thing to do to my poor Tara" and bemoaning to the press how Tara cried her eyes out over hearing that.

I think it's weird that you think you can accurately diagnose the emotional and mental state of people you've never met from your couch - what they feel, whom they are jealous of, what they are thrilled about, what they know, what they care about, what they can and cannot accept.

If you truly have this talent for accurately discerning emotions and thoughts from a distance, you should be making millions of dollars. Are you?

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

One doesnt need to be a psychologist to notice she has brought up Michelle Kwan atleast 100 times in her commentary so far (without Kwan ever being suggested by Terry, Johnny, or anyone she is working with). Who else does that over one skater who no longer exists in the skating world. She still has a massive inferiority complex over someone like Kwan, all these years later, even after beating her at the Olympics. :laugh:

jaylee · Mar 19, 2014

Rubirosa said:
Mao was #27 in TES in SP. You think her PCS should be lower than Isadora's from Brazil, Glebova's from Estonia or V. Helgesson from Sweden? It's ISU that would be humiliated when now we know how Mao skated FS. If all scores Base Value, GOE, PCS mattered to all skater fairly, Mao's PCS result in FS would be 1st, not Yuna's. But then Yuna would get bronze. Judges secure her silver medal, if you are still looking for the controversy.

Meh, quit changing around the argument. You can't trumpet base value as the most important thing when it comes to a skater you don't like but acknowledge the importance of PCS when it comes to Mao Asada in the SP. And Mao Asada getting first in the FS wouldn't push Yuna down to bronze.

caelum said:
I personally don't believe Adelina should have won, but am I the only one who thinks her Sochi performance was quite superior to her TEB performance? Everyone keeps showing this video like it proves something, but if anything it seems to me her Oly score should have been quite a bit higher?

I agree, the Sochi performance is superior. Don't think it's 20 points superior, but it is superior.

Nadya · Mar 19, 2014

DarR said:
It's true I favour yuna to adelina but yuna wouldn't have won even if she did a 3lo and a 2a-3t - she wouldn't have gained a 5 point advantage over adelina. Isn't that wrong?

You are dealing with theoreticals and "what-ifs" that make it truly impossible to know who would have gained what. You remind me of a girlfriend of mine who said once that her favorite fantasy was being with George Clooney on a big boat in the middle of the ocean. Then she said, "wait, no, that wouldn't work, since I get seasick easily." "You idiot," I said, "you are already imagining you're with Clooney, which would never happen. Why can't you imagine, too, that you're resistant to motion sickness?"

Nadya · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
One doesnt need to be a psychologist to notice she has brought up Michelle Kwan atleast 100 times in her commentary so far (without Kwan ever being suggested by Terry, Johnny, or anyone she is working with). Who else does that over one skater who no longer exists in the skating world. She still has a massive inferiority complex over someone like Kwan, all these years later, even after beating her at the Olympics.

You should tape, for instance, Dick Button, and see how many times he mentions Kwan. Is he jealous of her too?

I personally think there is nothing strange about Tara referring to Kwan as the most prominent skater who happened to share the same time interval.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

jaylee said:
I agree, the Sochi performance is superior. Don't think it's 20 points superior, but it is superior.

Nah, the only differences was in TEB she did a decent triple lutz-double toe vs her poorly done triple flutz-triple toe which was badly UR and should have received less credit than a well done triple-double, and her bad stumble out of the jump combo she did cleanly at TEB. Otherwise the same performance. So based on TEB maybe 125 would be appropriate.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

Nadya said:
You should tape, for instance, Dick Button, and see how many times he mentions Kwan. Is he jealous of her too?

Dick hardly ever mentioned Kwan in his commentary after she retired, despite being the biggest Kwan worshipper ever. So you are wrong on that. Now while she was competing he mentioned her endlessly, even when she wasnt skating, but that is different.

Nadya · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Dick hardly ever mentioned Kwan in his commentary after she retired, despite being the biggest Kwan worshipper ever. So you are wrong on that. Now while she was competing he mentioned her endlessly, even when she wasnt skating, but that is different.

I disagree, I think his commentary, especially at Nationals, always featured Kwan.

gmyers · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Nah, the only differences was in TEB she did a decent triple lutz-double toe vs her poorly done triple flutz-triple toe which was badly UR and should have received less credit than a well done triple-double, and her bad stumble out of the jump combo she did cleanly at TEB. Otherwise the same performance. So based on TEB maybe 125 would be appropriate.

Sotnikova did not do the 3 jump combo in Paris! There was no 3 jump combo and no 3/3 and spin levels and performance were inferior to sochi.

gmyers · Mar 19, 2014

caelum said:
I personally don't believe Adelina should have won, but am I the only one who thinks her Sochi performance was quite superior to her TEB performance? Everyone keeps showing this video like it proves something, but if anything it seems to me her Oly score should have been quite a bit higher?

Exactly! I can't beleieve Yuna was robbed people say Paris was supeior to sochi! Are they clueless?

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

Anna K. said:
Protocols can't resolve this question but they can raise this question and they fairly do.

So the question is... is it good for the business or it isn't?

This is the only answer I'm actually waiting for given that no serious reforms are scheduled thus far.

As for reforms, a proposal (sponsored by USFS) is on the table to abolish judges' anonymity. This is scheduled to be voted on at the spring meeting of the ISU congress. I don't know how much support the proposal has from member federations.

As for what's good for business, I seem to be in a small minority on these boards, but I don't believe that judging controversies matter very much when it comes to the bottom line. The once-every-four-year-fans do not have much invested in the outcome, except that they like to see medals for their own country. They have a general feeling that politics and bias plays a roll in figure skating judging anyway, so what else is new?

Avid fans will continue to follow the sport -- or not -- regardless of the heat of arguments about who was robbed back in 2014.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 19, 2014

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Ok now I'm sad. Thx for getting me to watch Yulia's FS again.

After checking the protocols it appears Yulia did her 3f in bonus time where Yuna did hers second and before bonus. So that explains the 1.30. Honestly Yulia earned every bit of that GOE and score on that particular jump while I guess one could argue more for Yuna. What I find the most interesting is the overall scores of those inflated. Gracie, Adelina, Yulia. You really don't see any one or two judges going crazy. It is really apparent with Yulia. There is clear Olympic/home inflation happening but its across the board. In that respect I do think "Daisy" has a valid point. The whole panel had to be involved or something quite bizarre is happening. Look at all the +2 for her 3lz-3t. Flutz aside(sometimes she gets it) her 3t which she is one of the best at is forced with her landing foot more than I have ever seen from her and similar to one of Mao's more sketchy 3a landings. Yet she got two 3's, three 2's, two 1's, and two 0's. I am Yulia bonkers and I could make a case for a +1 GOE maybe stretch it to a wonky +2 GOE for the sake of corruption. I would expect over half of the panel to be 0 GOE. Especially knowing she has one of the best 3t in the field.

My point is look at Yulia's scores on the protocols above and tell me that most if not all of the judges held that girl up. It's very telling to me that this is not some Russian nationalistic plan necessarily but potentially something more based in the ISU itself. I said going into the olympics that the ISU wants Yuna's records to be beaten in the next quad and all these Russians may be their way to do it. The ISU also may want to send a message that says to the skaters " don't skate the GP...don't win the gold". I can disagree with it on a personal merit but in the truest sense of a business decision it might actually be the correct one.

Please be kind to Yulia though...she had nothing to do with the judging. It was very heartbreaking for her and her fans.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
Are you talking to me? I am not latching on to anything. I am saying that the looking at the protocols cannot resolve the question of whether or not any of the judges or tech panel were up to no good.

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but this information is not revealed by the protocols.

Shouldn't our discussion center around the score sheets since, after all, it was the judges' scores that determined the outcome? People don't like that Adelina got so many +2 and +3 but virtually all of the judges showered her with these high marks. People don't like that she got so many 9's for PE, CH, and IN but she got two 8.75's and twenty five 9+ scores on those performance measures. To me, this debunks the theory that two judges' hyper-inflated scores resulted in the outcome. Wearing my lawyer hat, I do think about intent and why judges may have inflated Adelina's scores in such a manner. Why would judges from CAN, ITA, GER, FRA and JPN score Adelina so high, either close to or ahead of Yuna? Most of the posters on this thread think because of corruption, but what is in it for the judges or the countries they represent? Unless there is some valid evidence to the contrary, my suspicion is that they genuinely believed Adelina's performance was stronger.

DarR · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Shouldn't our discussion center around the score sheets since, after all, it was the judges' scores that determined the outcome? People don't like that Adelina got so many +2 and +3 but virtually all of the judges showered her with these high marks. People don't like that she got so many 9's for PE, CH, and IN but she got two 8.75's and twenty five 9+ scores on those performance measures. To me, this debunks the theory that two judges' hyper-inflated scores resulted in the outcome. Wearing my lawyer hat, I do think about intent and why judges may have inflated Adelina's scores in such a manner. Why would judges from CAN, ITA, GER, FRA and JPN score Adelina so high, either close to or ahead of Yuna? Most of the posters on this thread think because of corruption, but what is in it for the judges or the countries they represent? Unless there is some valid evidence to the contrary, my suspicion is that they genuinely believed Adelina's performance was stronger.

I recall reading somewhere that it was because of Laternik's (sp) influence over the judging panel. This was quoted from a judge who wanted to remain anonymous. Sorry for not being able to link the article.

usethis2 · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
Avid fans will continue to follow the sport -- or not -- regardless of the heat of arguments about who was robbed back in 2014.

I am waiting to see what changes they will make. The minimum reform should be removing anonymity and establishing more strict and transparent tech rules. I don't know who would be against these at this point, regardless who they support and who they want to see winning. I will also pay attention to judging in the Worlds.

If nothing happens, I will share my displeasure in social media and.. Oh I don't know.

DarR · Mar 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Ok now I'm sad. Thx for getting me to watch Yulia's FS again.

After checking the protocols it appears Yulia did her 3f in bonus time where Yuna did hers second and before bonus. So that explains the 1.30. Honestly Yulia earned every bit of that GOE and score on that particular jump while I guess one could argue more for Yuna. What I find the most interesting is the overall scores of those inflated. Gracie, Adelina, Yulia. You really don't see any one or two judges going crazy. It is really apparent with Yulia. There is clear Olympic/home inflation happening but its across the board. In that respect I do think "Daisy" has a valid point. The whole panel had to be involved or something quite bizarre is happening. Look at all the +2 for her 3lz-3t. Flutz aside(sometimes she gets it) her 3t which she is one of the best at is forced with her landing foot more than I have ever seen from her and similar to one of Mao's more sketchy 3a landings. Yet she got two 3's, three 2's, two 1's, and two 0's. I am Yulia bonkers and I could make a case for a +1 GOE maybe stretch it to a wonky +2 GOE for the sake of corruption. I would expect over half of the panel to be 0 GOE. Especially knowing she has one of the best 3t in the field.

My point is look at Yulia's scores on the protocols above and tell me that most if not all of the judges held that girl up. It's very telling to me that this is not some Russian nationalistic plan necessarily but potentially something more based in the ISU itself. I said going into the olympics that the ISU wants Yuna's records to be beaten in the next quad and all these Russians may be their way to do it. The ISU also may want to send a message that says to the skaters " don't skate the GP...don't win the gold". I can disagree with it on a personal merit but in the truest sense of a business decision it might actually be the correct one.

Please be kind to Yulia though...she had nothing to do with the judging. It was very heartbreaking for her and her fans.

I understand, but cheer up - she's an Olympic gold medalist for good reasons!

usethis2 · Mar 19, 2014

DarR said:
It's true I favour yuna to adelina but yuna wouldn't have won even if she did a 3lo and a 2a-3t - she wouldn't have gained a 5 point advantage over adelina. Isn't that wrong?

The gold was not up to Yuna/Mao/Carolina's performances. That is what infuriates most. The competition was only for silver or bronze for reasons other than skating.

Anna K. · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
As for reforms, a proposal (sponsored by USFS) is on the table to abolish judges' anonymity. This is scheduled to be voted on at the spring meeting of the ISU congress. I don't know how much support the proposal has from member federations.

As for what's good for business, I seem to be in a small minority on these boards, but I don't believe that judging controversies matter very much when it comes to the bottom line. The once-every-four-year-fans do not have much invested in the outcome, except that they like to see medals for their own country. They have a general feeling that politics and bias plays a roll in figure skating judging anyway, so what else is new?

Avid fans will continue to follow the sport -- or not -- regardless of the heat of arguments about who was robbed back in 2014.

I think I can beat you in being even smaller minority because I started to follow FS – more or less – after 2002 because of invention of CoP. I guess the majority did exactly the opposite :biggrin:

You see, one of the reforms was to widen the geography of figure skating. I could really feel it in my country. Full-time live coverage of Europeans and Worlds appeared on national TV (what’s interesting, they have disappeared this year) with specialist comments and more local events were scheduled (just realized that FS homepage in my country hasn’t been updated for a year). One of the bottom lines the politics of ISU seem returning to is to give controversial medals to representatives of big players and forget about the rest.
If it will pay off, then figure skating won’t return. That’s the difference :biggrin:

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

DarR said:
I recall reading somewhere that it was because of Laternik's (sp) influence over the judging panel. This was quoted from a judge who wanted to remain anonymous. Sorry for not being able to link the article.

What specifically was the influence? Yuna-ubers have refused to address the near-universal love the judging panel heaped on Adelina, so this would actually be someone relevant to explain why all the judges gave her very high marks.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 19, 2014

@DarR I'm not picking on you or retaliating for you mentioning Yulia. I will defend Yulia but I don't hold grudges or take things personally. I do find it odd to quote a judge who wants to remain anonymous when that might in fact be the reason were here in the first place? Via judging anonymity. There is defenitely some irony there.

Just saying < :slink:

>

The Judging Controversy Thread

Nadya

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

jaylee

Nadya

Nadya

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

Nadya

gmyers

gmyers

Mathman

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

drivingmissdaisy

DarR

usethis2

DarR

usethis2

Anna K.

drivingmissdaisy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

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