2015-16 State of Russian Ice Dance

Snow63 said:

I actually find it funny that all Zoueva's teams have very high TES marks this season: Cappellini/Lanotte, the Shibs, Sinitsina/Katsalapov. After last season's technical fiasco something's clearly changed in her team.

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Last season C&L and the Shibs toured after the Olympics, and S&K were a brand new team. Perhaps the difference is that all of these teams have been training hard throughout the off season and that there is much less upheaval and transition going on at the rink. And perhaps with less upheaval, Marina and her team have had more opportunity to respond to the technical demands early in the season. Last year the Shibs' programs and levels developed throughout the year. This season the development between Nepela & Skate Canada, right off the bat, was truly profound. In any case, it doesn't take an expert to see that the difference for all three of these teams is real. The Shibs have a stronger combination of SD and free programs than I have ever seen from them. I think their SDs are typically strong, but they are making a leap forward artistically in the FD. Their free dance this season is original and says something about them, rather than being a program in which they imitate the style of other famous dancers. S&K are skating solidly--as in not falling all over themselves--and more together. The growth is dramatic and easy for anyone to appreciate. And C&L have come out looking trained, rejuvenated, and much more committed to their own style. How these teams will place relative to the rest of the World remains to be seen throughout the course of multiple performances and competitions. But all three of these teams clearly out-classed their own GP debuts from last season.

whatif said:

You can blame C/B's issues, but the fact remains that in both international outings this season, they have scored highest in each competition.

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And IMO, for all the conspiracy theories going around all the time, this is something that has stayed consistent with the tech panels in the GP this season. Judy Blumberg (the tech specialist at SA) isn't exactly known for taking it easy on the dance couples and she sure isn't known as some sekret Russian agent LOL, yet S/K got the highest TES in the FD at SA as well. Perhaps C/B skated better in the SD in America (they did) or it was a teeny, tiny home ice advantage that gave them the benefit of the doubt in that portion, but she cracked down on their levels in the FD as well...which is something that was repeated in China.

Dostatni was a bit harder on the Italians in Russia this week than the panel in China was and handed out deductions to everyone like candy in the FD LOL, but other than that the levels for the teams lined up pretty well with what was already shown in other outings. S/K had decent levels in the SD except for the step sequence (which is something they need to work on and improve), and they hit their elements very well in the FD (which was also true in Skate America). So that stayed consistent. Which means there are clear criteria the panels are looking for in the dance couples and tech panels and judges roughly agree on what should be rewarded. Of course then politiking and personal taste and whatever else always comes in with a judged sport, but the ice dance scores this season so far have all been rather reasonable and established ground rules about what is expected from the couples.

katha said:

Of course then politiking and personal taste and whatever else always comes in with a judged sport, but the ice dance scores this season so far have all been rather reasonable and established ground rules about what is expected from the couples.

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About TES I agree, but PCS still too much depends on reputation.
Alla Shekhovtseva published a very interesting article about this matter a couple of weeks ago: http://mosfigurist.ru/?p=1469#more-1469
She writes about some ISU decisions for this season: about lifts, pertial step sequences, key-points etc. Very interesting to read, but I'm sorry, it's only on Russian.
You can love her or hate her, but it doesn't change the fact that she's amazing EXPERT. And she clearly knows what she's talking about. It's worth to read.

Mattieu said:

I agree, as all they need is someone to sort out the technical issues, the presentation is all there.
Though Igor's choice in music and programs is so boring, I can't imagine Elena with him.

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Igor let Pechalat & Bourzat arrange their own choreo, resulting in their Little Prince.

Coomes & Buckland still get their choreo from Askew.

If Elena & Ruslan want to arrange their own choreo with Najarro or whomever, I am sure that can be arranged.

After all, Chock and Bates did last year's SD with him.

Snow63 said:

About TES I agree, but PCS still too much depends on reputation.
Alla Shekhovtseva published a very interesting article about this matter a couple of weeks ago: http://mosfigurist.ru/?p=1469#more-1469
She writes about some ISU decisions for this season: about lifts, pertial step sequences, key-points etc. Very interesting to read, but I'm sorry, it's only on Russian.
You can love her or hate her, but it doesn't change the fact that she's amazing EXPERT. And she clearly knows what she's talking about. It's worth to read.

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I hope someone will translate this! Indeed she is a real Expert with a capital E.

It is a super interesting article. As far as I read (I didn't have much time, so I've read only the first half up to where she starts to discuss Gabby and Guillaume's FD from last season), it raises some interesting points about the judging of ID and it's "unique face".

The article starts with explaining that while some people are unhappy that ID has become increasingly athletic and has lost its identity and become somewhat boring. Alla Sh. says that previously there was a hierarchy in Ice Dance - starting with compulsory dances where you had to do everything exactly, through OD which had some requirements about rhythm and the pattern of the dance to the absolute freedom of the FD. However, while past OD's and FD's were artistically interesting there was no objective way to compare them. This is why implementing technical elements means judges no longer have to judge programs according to how well they like them. Also this way the Free Dance is not technically free anymore because of the many requirements for it.

She says that initially dance programs under the new system looked somewhat unvaried because they were created from the "constructing blocks" of the technical elements but that has changed since and recent programs look like cohesive compositions that have some elements at the culmination moments. The technical committee is therefore glad that there is some balance between the artistic and technical side of ID even if it is not currently ideal. However the question before them is how ID will develop in the future. It has nowadays become apparent to the ISU that the difference between Ice dance and Pairs skating has started to become less clear, especially since pairs have started to do choreographic lifts and step sequences with twizzles in dance positions and dance teams have started doing pair spins. She gives Tatiana and Maxim's Bollywood program as an example of a composition where you could change the pairs elements with dance ones and have a composition very similar to a dance program. She thinks that if dancers are not restricted we may soon see choreographic spirals in dances - that are based on the principle of execution of the pairs spiral and therefore the technical committee now has the task to save the uniqueness of dance and make its "face" recognisable to the the audiences. She also has proposed an idea to change the concept of the pairs SP which is currently a shorter version of the LP to something that focuses on the clean lines, unison and parallel execution by the pairs, which are well demonstrated in Gordeeva and Grinkov's programs.

This is as far as I have read.

Lester said:

It is a super interesting article. As far as I read (I didn't have much time, so I've read only the first half up to where she starts to discuss Gabby and Guillaume's FD from last season), it raises some interesting points about the judging of ID and it's "unique face".

The article starts with explaining that while some people are unhappy that ID has become increasingly athletic and has lost its identity and become somewhat boring. Alla Sh. says that previously there was a hierarchy in Ice Dance - starting with compulsory dances where you had to do everything exactly, through OD which had some requirements about rhythm and the pattern of the dance to the absolute freedom of the FD. However, while past OD's and FD's were artistically interesting there was no objective way to compare them. This is why implementing technical elements means judges no longer have to judge programs according to how well they like them. Also this way the Free Dance is not technically free anymore because of the many requirements for it.

She says that initially dance programs under the new system looked somewhat unvaried because they were created from the "constructing blocks" of the technical elements but that has changed since and recent programs look like cohesive compositions that have some elements at the culmination moments. The technical committee is therefore glad that there is some balance between the artistic and technical side of ID even if it is not currently ideal. However the question before them is how ID will develop in the future. It has nowadays become apparent to the ISU that the difference between Ice dance and Pairs skating has started to become less clear, especially since pairs have started to do choreographic lifts and step sequences with twizzles in dance positions and dance teams have started doing pair spins. She gives Tatiana and Maxim's Bollywood program as an example of a composition where you could change the pairs elements with dance ones and have a composition very similar to a dance program. She thinks that if dancers are not restricted we may soon see choreographic spirals in dances - that are based on the principle of execution of the pairs spiral and therefore the technical committee now has the task to save the uniqueness of dance and make its "face" recognisable to the the audiences. She also has proposed an idea to change the concept of the pairs SP which is currently a shorter version of the LP to something that focuses on the clean lines, unison and parallel execution by the pairs, which are well demonstrated in Gordeeva and Grinkov's programs.

This is as far as I have read.

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It is interesting indeed!
Bravo. I hope you will continue to translate this for our English speaking friends

Edit: one remark, Alla writes that she announced her proposition of possible changing of the concept of short programms in Pairs at joint meeting of both technical committees: pairs and ice dance. She wants to make SP more like a traditional pairs program, like you said: clean defined lines, unison and parallel execution, which means there is no place for step sequence in hold in Pairs short programms. I expect this proposition to be adaptated in next few seasons. The ISU has taken its course to differentiate Pairs skating from Ice Dance, they already cancelled not touching parallel step sequences for Seniors SD, Pairs SP changes will be next. So the two disciplines will be moving in each own 'unique' direction. I think it's a very interesting idea to say the least!

I read it until the end. I will hopefully summarise it for everyone else to read tomorrow because now I'm going to bed

Here is another portion of the article:

Mozart, concerto 23

This section discusses how Gabby and Guillaume's free dance has caused such great reactions because it has shown everyone that it is possible to create a dance of great beauty from the "constructor pieces" even using a musical piece that is not exactly music for dancing. Their dance is inspirational and the great harmony with the mood of the music is something that not many dance duos were able to achieve recently.
This dance has given an answer to all the discussions that have endlessly unfolded among specialists and fans and it has become a proof that it is possible to restore the soul and artistic creativity in Ice dance without destroying the whole system of rules.
On one hand it was heartening to see that coaches were able to find a good balance between technique and artistism and that the rules allow the creation of dances in which the different technical elements can be combined into a whole cohesive dance. On the other hand, it is early to become euphoric because these are only sporadic attempts to create something truly remarkable and interesting that comes close to what the ISU technical committee and fans expect of the athletes. On the whole this attempt has allowed a different view on Ice dance and has moved the discussions on a higher level.
Everyone of us wants to see, of course, more notable and varied compositions on the ice and that athletes and coaches are in constant artistic quest. This is why we are constantly looking for ways to expand the boundaries of creativity of coaches and athletes and still be within the boundaries of the rules. So the main question is this: what more can we do on top what has already been done in this respect?

Surprise us

ISU does not stop with its attempts to make Ice dance more spectacular and this is why there has been the regular attempt to give coaches and choreographers the chance to most vividly reveal their talents as choreographers and also reveal the individuality of their skaters. In particular, in the senior short dance this year there is not touching straight line step sequence. It has been replaced by the partial step sequence which enables skaters with the task to create their own original version of the pattern dance under the prescribed rhythm. The partial step sequence is a new element that was first introduced into the short dance last season will now be evaluated as a step sequence. Coaches are given complete freedom and all doors are open to them - please, create, smite, delight.
If we go back to the era of ODs, we will remember that the list of pattern dances has been expanded by the inclusion with the best, in the opinion of the ISU technical committee, ODs and we hope to revive that tradition. Currently many of the pattern dances don't match the technical level of the athletes and need "restyling". Unfortunately, at the moment only a few performances can be called successful in this respect. To reach the level of P&G's Tango romantica and K&P's Golden waltz, the psychology of the skaters and the coaches has to change. It has to be understood that the pattern dance is not just an element but a dance within a dance in substance and it has to be treated not like an element but like a complete dance composition and the main task there is to express the character of the chosen rhythm through movement.
Imagine the situation in which judges are tasked to identify the rhythm to which a given partial step sequence is set if the music is switched off. In the majority of cases this task would be impossible to complete. However, this situation probably won't present any difficulties to the judges in ballroom dance.

Back to the future

This year, the ISU technical committee has also opened the door to more interesting lifts. Now they have added the feature of "difficult exit" for determining levels. "Difficult" should be understood not as much as hard to do but as interesting, unusual or creative exit that would embellish the lift. If skaters use this option they may not do a difficult position for the lady or the man but find a truly interesting and creative variants that would embellish the composition.
Despite that coaches are have adapted to the rules so much (or perhaps they have underestimated the new opportunities and want to be on the safe side) that, with rare exceptions they have stuck to traditional lifts. She hopes that in the future creativity will return to ice dance.



Whew, there are three more sections, which I will go back to later. They concern the keypoints of the RW this year and whether Russia will resume its leadership in ID and the last one is the conclusion bit.

As for the difficult exit feature - I think this is why Piper & Paul are doing with their FD stationary lift this year and I think I've seen some other couples do it but I can't remember who now.

Alla is probably one of the very few most experienced and knowledgeable ice dance specialists in ISU today. And her interviews are always insightful. She usually focuses on substance, but also never shy to state her personal tastes and opinions. Haters gonna hate.

So, after NHK, this is my personal take on the state of Russian ice dance, as flawed as it may be.

BS are basically back to #1 and going to GPF.

But, hold on, surprise! SK are a close second, still having scored higher than BS on the FD (in both GPs).

IZ are in a rough spot. They really should have been fighting for first with BS, but they have been inconsistent since Euros last year and the judges are not loving their programs. If they are not careful, they'll be fighting SB for third.

SB are in 4th but potentially breathing down IZ's neck.

Russian Nationals will be very interesting. Might make time at Christmas for this !

If they are all clean, then I would say IZ and SK are a while above SB and a little behind BS. Unfortunately for IZ, consistency seems to be an issue, so I would consider SK to be the second team for now, though not solidly.

tvuckic16 said:

So, after NHK, this is my personal take on the state of Russian ice dance, as flawed as it may be.

BS are basically back to #1 and going to GPF.

But, hold on, surprise! SK are a close second, still having scored higher than BS on the FD (in both GPs).

IZ are in a rough spot. They really should have been fighting for first with BS, but they have been inconsistent since Euros last year and the judges are not loving their programs. If they are not careful, they'll be fighting SB for third.

SB are in 4th but potentially breathing down IZ's neck.

Russian Nationals will be very interesting. Might make time at Christmas for this !

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Tarasova thinks differently, and so do I. She hinted very confidently that Bobrova/Soloviev and Ilinykh/Zhiganshin are still top priority. And Sinitsina/Katsalapov should close the podium. And when Grishin said something like 'But Sinitsina is the best team so far', she replied 'That's what YOU think' with a tone, which showed that HE doesn't know anything. I think in this case she actually knows what she's talking about.
As for scores, I would not compare them between events, especially considering some teams skated at their home events, and some didn't. But I'm glad that Bobrova/Soloviev would have won tie-breaker over Sinitsina/Katsalapov with old rules too.

Ok, Sinitsina, with home ice advantage, only scored 0.6 points higher than Bobrova in FD. What does that sounds like? Oh and let's not forget 3 points lower in SD, ice dance is not all about free dance you know.
And unless it's a head-to-head competition, comparing scores from different competitions is not right at all. (well, unless it's the only choice left - like getting qualified for GPF here). And by the by, Sinitsina/Katsalapov didn't make it to GPF, so actually they don't have that much advantage over Ilinykh/Zhiganshin. Don't go brutally writing IZ off like that OK?
I totally agree with Snow above - and Tarasova of course - that BS and IZ are top 2, SK closing the podium, but I still hope that somehow Stepukin could grasp the bronze at Nationals.

S/K are very good FD skaters, their scores this year made this obvious, but already last season their FD was their strength. Their PB in the SD is barely above I/Z`s SB, who have a SD that isn`t really liked. If we compare I/Z`s and B/S`s PB to S/K`s, the latter are even more behind. I think a lot depends on S/K hitting their levels in the SD, because both, B/S and I/Z, received better levels on the GP.

Marta25 said:

S/K are very good FD skaters, their scores this year made this obvious, but already last season their FD was their strength. Their PB in the SD is barely above I/Z`s SB, who have a SD that isn`t really liked. If we compare I/Z`s and B/S`s PB to S/K`s, the latter are even more behind. I think a lot depends on S/K hitting their levels in the SD, because both, B/S and I/Z, received better levels on the GP.

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Agree. If we compare PB, IZ is leading now, by almost 10 points.

TheGothicEme said:

Agree. If we compare PB, IZ is leading now, by almost 10 points.

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I think Marta was talking about best SD scores in the GP circuit, because let's be honest, Mordovian Ornament isn't a very good way to compare at all.

TheGothicEme said:

Ok, Sinitsina, with home ice advantage, only scored 0.6 points higher than Bobrova in FD. What does that sounds like? Oh and let's not forget 3 points lower in SD, ice dance is not all about free dance you know.
And unless it's a head-to-head competition, comparing scores from different competitions is not right at all. (well, unless it's the only choice left - like getting qualified for GPF here). And by the by, Sinitsina/Katsalapov didn't make it to GPF, so actually they don't have that much advantage over Ilinykh/Zhiganshin. Don't go brutally writing IZ off like that OK?
I totally agree with Snow above - and Tarasova of course - that BS and IZ are top 2, SK closing the podium, but I still hope that somehow Stepukin could grasp the bronze at Nationals.

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Well I agree BS are number 1. I said that.

Tarasova also thought SB could win Nationals last year....so....

I don't doubt Tarasova, but if I were the boss and had to make a priority list I would not go with the inconsistent team. To be fair neither IZ nor SK inspire much confidence, they are both risky bets in terms of errors.

To me it's pretty obvious that B/S are currently #1, and that as tvuckic16 points out, the Fed is going to find it easier to place their eggs in that basket come Nationals because they have been more consistent, and over many many more years, than either I/Z or S/K, both of whom, to some degree, remain more of an unknown quantity than some people here like to admit.

I'd then say S/K are probably number 2, followed by I/Z. I actually think all three of those teams remain relatively 'close' though, and that the order is not set in stone depending on who can preform well or who messes up on a given day. I think that S/B, M/K or anyone else are pretty much a distant 4th at this time.

tulosai said:

To me it's pretty obvious that B/S are currently #1, and that as tvuckic16 points out, the Fed is going to find it easier to place their eggs in that basket come Nationals because they have been more consistent, and over many many more years, than either I/Z or S/K, both of whom, to some degree, remain more of an unknown quantity than some people here like to admit.

I'd then say S/K are probably number 2, followed by I/Z. I actually think all three of those teams remain relatively 'close' though, and that the order is not set in stone depending on who can preform well or who messes up on a given day. I think that S/B, M/K or anyone else are pretty much a distant 4th at this time.

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I agree entirely.

I think S/K are more likely to be at Worlds than I/Z. S/K have been way more consistent this year and have improved more as well....