Transitions and difficult steps of top men

There is this article by a Russian blogger Yulena, she is very knowledgeable about FS:
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/dobroefk/916639.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

EDITED, WHOLE TRANSLATION: http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/143787559605/my-friend-marina-has-just-translated-the-whole

Here she compares transitions, linking footwork and difficult steps of all top men (maybe only SP). From what I understand, blue is crossovers and 2-foot skating, orange is 1-foot skating and difficult moves, grey is other types of steps and transitions.

Apparently this is the English translation of the 1st chart: https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=d4b21ddeda25affd42b8125bdf73b43e&oe=577E30FD

And the English translation of the 2nd chart: https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=6522bc67fa82dc77372382fbed328bc5&oe=57863B35

I hope some Russian posters can help with some other parts.:luv17:

Thanks.

Actually there are many thing more in the article, not just those chart. I know it might be confusing but she grouped mohawk (Моухок) and choctaw (Чоктау) in other parts of the article.

For example this is her analysis of Yuzuru's transitions (I hope I understand it right):

Spread eagle - 3 turn - Mohawk - 4S - Spread eagle
Choctaw - Mohawk - Chasse - 3 turn - 4Т
Ina Bauer - 3 turn - Chasse - Counter - 3А - Change of edge - Counter

Then again, I am not sure I used the dictionary right at all :shame:

If you want to dig this article up, maybe you will find this helpful: https://www.tulup.ru/elements.html
Russian - English FS dictionary

Why judge dont score PCS base on those number, because they dont have time?

Should we group Chan and Yuzu skill same group, and another group for everyone else

ysy94 said:

Why judge dont score PCS base on those number, because they dont have time?

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Well, they don't have time to count everything grouped into categories.

I think some judges take notes on general categories (e.g., use a different letter or symbol for steps, field moves, body movements, nonlisted jumps, etc.) and others have more detailed shorthand that would let them keep track of the difficulty and variety within the general categories, not just variety of categories.

And then they'd need additional ways of keeping track of the quality of the transitions and the intricacy (how closely transitional moves connect to the elements, or one element directly to the next).

Should there be a standard shorthand that every judge is required to use, regardless of their primary language or whether they tend to have a more verbal or visual thinking style? Or should they use whatever note-taking style works best for them but should there be an interface in the computer that allows/forces them to input more detail about what they're rewarding in Transitions rather than just inputting a single score for that component?

Should we group Chan and Yuzu skill same group, and another group for everyone else

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Judges/"we" should also be able to distinguish among the various everyone elses. Chan and Hanyu may be exceptional, but there are still distinctions to be made between very good, good, above average, average, fair, weak, etc.

gkelly said:

Well, they don't have time to count everything grouped into categories.

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Maybe its not something that people can easily distinguish and count. It seems not many GS members have idea what it is too.

Looking at those charts the only thing that I didn't expect is that Jin is obviously judged harshly compared to Uno when it comes to transitions.

psusanne said:

Looking at those charts the only thing that I didn't expect is that Jin is obviously judged harshly compared to Uno when it comes to transitions.

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maybe it`s because of pure quality of movement or aesthetics ?

psusanne said:

Looking at those charts the only thing that I didn't expect is that Jin is obviously judged harshly compared to Uno when it comes to transitions.

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Maybe it's the quality. Like a loop with a nice clean edge vs a loop with a shallow, scratchy edge?

The official guidelines for judging transitions for singles disciplines are just four words: Difficulty, Quality, Variety, and Intricacy.

Quantity is not an official criterion, but of course it's hard to have much difficulty or variety or intricacy if you're not doing much between the elements other than basic stroking.

One-foot skating and Multidirectional skating are part of the Skating Skills component.

A list of steps or other transitions, either specifically or by category, can show you the variety and difficulty. Judges would need other methods of notating quality and intricacy, or just rely on overall impression for the quality.

4everchan said:

maybe it`s because of pure quality of movement or aesthetics ?

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Interspectator said:

Maybe it's the quality. Like a loop with a nice clean edge vs a loop with a shallow, scratchy edge?

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Wouldn't quality be part of Performance/Execution? But clearly counting steps/movements isn't the answer to everything.
And now I remember that body movements are also transitions, that's why Kostner always got really good transition scores.
Anyway, I think those PCS criterias are far too complicated, the judges cannot really judge everything accurately in one go.

Program Components Explanations:
http://usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

Criteria for Transitions:

Criteria:

Variety

Difficulty
Intricacy
Quality (including unison in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Balance of workload between partners (Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Variety of Dance holds (not excessive side by side and hand in hand – Ice Dancing)

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The quality of the edges and turns could also figure under Skating Skills. The quality of body line and movements could also figure under Performance/Execution. But quality of the transitional moves themselves is absolutely one of the criteria for the Transitions component. (And, as I noted above, quantity is not.)

Here we are, full translation of the article:
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Some quote:

Yuzuru Hanyu in his SP demonstrates the best variety of transitions. The most amount of one footed transitions, minimum running steps and crossovers. Transitions are well distributed throughout entire program. Besides skating transitions he uses transitions of figure skating elements such as spread eagles, Bauers and half jumps”, the variety of transitions are very good. Execution of transitional steps and elements are followed by hand/body movements and are accompanied with the change of movements, balancing difficult transitions but the easy steps are executed together with hand and body movements – the difficulty of transitions is very good. Transitions are well incorporated in the program (both into elements and also difficult entries /exits) All three jumping elements Yuzuru is executing with difficult entries, 2 jumps from 3 has the difficult exit as well, the difficulty of transitions are very good. The quality of executing transitions is very good, hand movements, whole upper body and head is matching the music.

The variety of transitions of Patrick Chan’s SP is very good, balanced skating transitions and enough quantity of one footed transitions and elements of figure skating ( lunge and half jumps) , small amount of running steps and crossovers, the difficulty of transitions is very good. Execution is accompanied by body , hand and head movements, changing direction all the time. Easy steps are followed by difficult steps in a balanced way. The difficulty of transitions is good, Patrick has many transitions in his program but most of them are concentrated in the parts where he doesn’t executes jumps and he doesn’t execute difficult entries/exits. Entries to 4T3T and 3A are easy. Not a single difficult exit, Only his 3Lz has difficult entry. The quality of transitions is very good.

The variety in the program of Javier Fernandez is good. Crossovers and running steps are balanced/equal quality with one footed transitions and transitional elements (Spread eagle, turnsand half jumps), There are some skating steps that matches the character and style of music , small amount of crossovers, The difficulty of transitions is good. The execution of transitional steps are accompanied by hand and body movements with changing direction. The difficulty of transitions is good, well distributed . Two jumps from 3 (4S and 3A) are executed from difficult entries. No difficult exits. The quality of transitions is good, especially good movements with hands and head in the style of Spanish dance.

The variety of transitions in the SP of Adam Rippon is higher than medium (close to a good), Using two footed transitions and crossovers before using one footed transitions. Using good amount of variety of elements of figure skating (lunges, spread eagle, Walley, half jump non listed jump elements ) The difficulty of transitions is good. Many movements of body and hands during the execution of steps and elements, changing the direction all the time.
The difficulty of transitions is close to the high, transitions are distributed between elements which are not difficult entries/exits, only 3Lz is executed with difficult entry. The quality of execution of transitions is good.

The variety of transitions in Michael Kolyada’s SP is close to high. With the amount of the one footed skating transitions skater occupies honorary 4th place after Hanyu-Chan-Fernandez. Enough quantity of transitions, steps and elements (Bauer , Besti, half jump) The difficulty of transitions is good, enough quanitity of transitions accompanied by the changing direction and body/hand movements. The difficulty of transitions is good. Transitional elements are well distributed in different elements, part of the transitions are the difficult entries 3A and 3Lz. In entries he uses not only steps and turns but also non listed skating elements, the quality of transition execution is good,

The variety of transitions in Boyang Jon’s program is medium. He uses transitional steps , also transitional elements ( lunge and halfjump), uses 2 footed transitions, easy steps (Mohawk and Chasse), the quality of crossovers and running steps not very much, the difficulty of transitions is medium, head movements, hand /body during the execution of of transitional steps enough, transitions are executed with the changng of direction The difficulty of transitions –medium transitional elements are distributed between elements and they are not included in difficult entries/exits, the entries on jumping elements are easy, except 3A (Here he surprises pleasantly). The quality of executing transitions is medium, but young man is trying.

The variety of transitions in Shoma Uno’s program is medium, using 2 footed transitions, big amount of running steps and crossovers, combining rare transitions for changing the direction for example (Mohawks and three turns or spread eagles” . Enough amount of body movements, the difficulty of transitions –medium, not enough changing direction while executing the transitions. The difficulty of transitions are higher than medium, big amount of transition elements are concentrate between elements and are not included in entries/exits, the exception is the entry on 3A and exit from it. The quality of transitions is good.

Interesting observation, some top skaters are using same entries and exits of the same type of jumps, both in SP and LP (4T and 3A of Patrick , 4T and 4S of Javier) It is understandable that jumping from the same entry is easier and convenient, but on the other hand after that it is a bit difficult to speak about difficulty of some transitions in both programs, With the quads in sp, also difficulty of transitions before elements, difficulty and variety the most difficult program is executed by Yuzuru Hanyu, a good program but a bit easier is executed by Javier Fernandez.

Has any real FS/technical specialist tried to actually check the correctness and accuracy of the analysis offered to the public acquaintance by Yulena? As far as I know, she's not a specialist but rather an amateur/FS fan. Can't say I'm not delighted by all the results as Yuzu fan though.

Very educational. Thanks! :agree:

PatricksGaze said:

Has any real FS/technical specialist tried to actually check the correctness and accuracy of the analysis offered to the public acquaintance by Yulena? As far as I know, she's not a specialist but rather an amateur/FS fan. Can't say I'm not delighted by all the results as Yuzu fan though.

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Well, anyone can go through a program and identify and count footwork if you know what they are. Lol

PatricksGaze said:

Has any real FS/technical specialist tried to actually check the correctness and accuracy of the analysis offered to the public acquaintance by Yulena? As far as I know, she's not a specialist but rather an amateur/FS fan. Can't say I'm not delighted by all the results as Yuzu fan though.

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one Russian tehcnical specialist has checked her Yuzu's NHK and Pogo's Bolero program analysis and he was amazed,it is shockingly accurate, I wish many people in panel were as knowledgable as her

MAXSwagg said:

Well, anyone can go through a program and identify and count footwork if you know what they are. Lol

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Yeap, and I have spent sometimes to follow the steps that she listed and compared to the videos. I think she calls the steps quite right.

So, if you were a top level skater, the question is....... Who are YOU going to call if you need transitions and difficult steps? David Wilson, Lori Nicol, Nikolai Morozov, or someone else.

Personally, I think I'd call David Wilson. Here's why.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pHhqa7b1yA
Until this year, I haven't seen Adam look as good as he did in this Free Program from 2010 4CC.

mrrice said:

So, if you were a top level skater, the question is....... Who are YOU going to call if you need transitions and difficult steps? David Wilson, Lori Nicol, Nikolai Morozov, or someone else.

Personally, I think I'd call David Wilson.

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I don't think so. It depends on the skater themselves. For example Yuzuru works with Jeff and Shae and his programs have the highest amount of transitions because he decides many of the transitions himself. So all top choreographers can provide you the programs with the hardest transitions as long as you want and you are capable of.