Can skaters fix underrotation problems?

narcissa · Dec 16, 2016

It seems like chronic underrotaters (i.e. Mirai, Ashley, Mao) have worked hard to fix the issue that plagues them the most (and frequently keeps their scores/placements low despite beautiful performances), but it seems like no matter how many years pass, the problem only gets worse. Whereas skaters with good technique, like Yuna, Gracie, etc. may lose their jumps but still, they never under-rotate (unless it's a really badly landed jump). Has any skater ever truly "cured" themselves of under-rotation issues, or is it nearly impossible to fix the bad technique they learned as a child?

Alchamei · Dec 18, 2016

Didn't expect it would have no replies by now :laugh:

Honestly, I can't unfortunately think of anyone who completely fixed their bad habits. It seems like learning the correct technique is essential, otherwise you'll struggle with bad jumps for your whole career.

mrrice · Dec 18, 2016

Of course they can. Whether or not they do, is a different subject. Ashley was the two foot queen before she got to Raf. My Jury is still out on Mirai. When I saw her live way back in 2011. Her jumps were very high and it was the "Speed" of her rotation that needed work. Hopefully, her training on the 3A will help her get her other jumps around. We'll soon see. The stunningly beautiful Jennifer Robinson skated beautifully by the end of her career but, she had a big under rotation and fall right in front of me in 2001. So yes, I think a skater can overcome a rotation problem.

shiroKJ · Dec 18, 2016

Has any skater ever truly "cured" themselves of under-rotation issues, or is it nearly impossible to fix the bad technique they learned as a child?

I think its very unlikely (but not impossible) that a skater can completely get rid of a bad technique once they hit their mid to late teens. Of course, you can fix it and patch it up with the right coach and right training but it'll always be something you have to be conscious about when you're on the ice. Usually these bad habits sneak back up when a skater gets nervous or is not in top form due to injuries or whichever reason. Ashley's two-footed/UR jumps and Shoma's terrible leg wrap are two that comes to mind.

It's hard work that needs years of dedication but I don't think its impossible. Just highly unlikely. Maybe someone can give an example of a skater who did.

Ladskater · Dec 18, 2016

Doing jumps is a real "mental" game. The skater has to believe he or she can do the jump and land the jump. Self-doubt will mess you up every time. If you get bad habits - like two footing the jump, it's hard to get rid of this "crutch" or aid. I know, I could never land a Lutz no matter how hard I tried. It was mental hang up. I could a flip really well, but not the Lutz. Also jumping takes a lot of "spring" some skaters have it while others don't. In essence, one has to "attack" the jump. I found the attack approach worked wonders. I don't think it is entirely impossible to overcome bad habits in jump technique just a lot of hard work and determination.

moriel · Dec 19, 2016

I think there are 2 parts of the problem:
1. bad technique
2. the skater cannot fully rotate (same as most ladies cannot jump a 3A and would UR one if they had to try)

bad technique probably can get fixed, while the second one just gets worse with age - and is highlighted by bad technique.

andromache · Dec 19, 2016

Poor technique never completely goes away. Neither does good technique. Carolina Kostner is "old" and has always been inconsistent isn't as athletic as she used to be or have the technical arsenal of her competitors, but she doesn't under rotate her jumps.

As for fixing it, I doubt it gets much better than Ashley Wagner. Sometimes her problems seem to disappear, other times they plague her awfully - but even when she's rotating everything, it's not like she will ever be known for her clear-as-day jumps or for having particularly impressive jumps at all.

Too many US ladies have been ruined by bad technique, like Ashley and Mirai. No where else do so many top ladies have under rotation problems.

Ares · Dec 19, 2016

Alchamei said:
Didn't expect it would have no replies by now

Honestly, I can't unfortunately think of anyone who completely fixed their bad habits. It seems like learning the correct technique is essential, otherwise you'll struggle with bad jumps for your whole career.

I think that people on this board tend to overstate that ''bad technique learned'' factor. It plays a part but it's also problem correlated with your physical condition – constant or temporary. Athletic problem - when you're in worse disposition on specific day, have redundant weight or because your body mechanics change as you get older (but some say that certain technique only works for prepubescent girls but it’s more complicated issue). Mental condition is also relevant, how confident you are, how stress affects you and whether you restrain yourself or not. You can’t underestimate either how your calls either. Skaters who had history of URs tend to be scrutinized much more like Mao.

Some skaters also just cannot fully rotate because of physical or talent limitations.

da96103 · Dec 19, 2016

Ladskater said:
Doing jumps is a real "mental" game. The skater has to believe he or she can do the jump and land the jump. Self-doubt will mess you up every time. If you get bad habits - like two footing the jump, it's hard to get rid of this "crutch" or aid. I know, I could never land a Lutz no matter how hard I tried. It was mental hang up. I could a flip really well, but not the Lutz. Also jumping takes a lot of "spring" some skaters have it while others don't. In essence, one has to "attack" the jump. I found the attack approach worked wonders. I don't think it is entirely impossible to overcome bad habits in jump technique just a lot of hard work and determination.

I remembered the lady at B.ESP, during the replay of Brown's 4T at NHK, why he put his foot down early when he was still so high in the air and that he should have more confidence in his jump.

TGee · Dec 19, 2016

andromache said:
Poor technique never completely goes away. Neither does good technique. Carolina Kostner is "old" and has always been inconsistent isn't as athletic as she used to be or have the technical arsenal of her competitors, but she doesn't under rotate her jumps.

As for fixing it, I doubt it gets much better than Ashley Wagner. Sometimes her problems seem to disappear, other times they plague her awfully - but even when she's rotating everything, it's not like she will ever be known for her clear-as-day jumps or for having particularly impressive jumps at all.

Too many US ladies have been ruined by bad technique, like Ashley and Mirai. No where else do so many top ladies have under rotation problems.

Poor technique seems to be something that skaters revert to under stress. Such as of course the stress of elite competitions. And it's not just underrotations...

A couple of other examples....Kirsten Moore-Towers commented after her spectacular fall on a missed lift at nationals on how it was difficult to learn, at the Montreal pairs school, to pace and not rush the elements. And that is the way that she and Michael Marinaro have learned to train every day. But naturally with the rush of adrenaline, reverting to rushed mounts that rely on momentum is a real risk.

Alaine Chartrand seems to have a longstanding issue with bringing her free leg through very close to the centre axis. When she is tense it can brush the ice and create a two foot landing or turnout. If she overcorrects, she often falls.

So what may result in inconsistency, may actually be the reversion to old body memory when it counts....

Tutto · Dec 19, 2016

In short - no
Old habits die hard

concorde · Dec 20, 2016

Alchamei said:
It seems like learning the correct technique is essential, otherwise you'll struggle with bad jumps for your whole career.

I was told it takes about 1000 hours to learn a jump. But if you have learned it incorrectly, it takes 10,000 hours to relearn it. Maybe the numbers are off but the overall point is it takes ALOT of time to correct an improperly learned jump. Due to the length of most skater's careers at the elite level, there just is not enough time.

concorde · Dec 20, 2016

And in most cases, under-rotation is caused by poor technique.

Tyranid · Dec 20, 2016

Dear Folks, tell me, is Radionova doomed? Will she keep UR'ing now that her body has changed? I just need to know so that I don't get too nervous while watching Rus. Nationals.

solani · Dec 20, 2016

Tyranid said:
Dear Folks, tell me, is Radionova doomed? Will she keep UR'ing now that her body has changed? I just need to know so that I don't get too nervous while watching Rus. Nationals.

I don't think she's doomed forever, I know that some are going to hate me for what I'm about to write now, but I think that Radionova not making the European and World team could be a blessing in disguise for her. She would have time to seriously work on her posture issues, she can't do that if she has to deliver. And that has been her problem for the past couple of years, she was always so competitive that she wasn't able to really work on the things she should work on.
I think that her bad posture is causing problems with her jumps. When she jumps it seems as if she's trying to get smaller, she's pulling her shoulders up and her back isn't straight - no ideal rotating and landing position imo. I'm not an expert but it just looks wrong. It's impressive that she's able to land those jumps.
I think that we all agree on the fact that she's a very talented skater but looking at her competitors I don't see her anyway near that Olympic podium in 2018 if she isn't able to improve her posture and her jumps.

sarama · Dec 20, 2016

I can't think of a skater who ever managed to completely fix their under-rotation issues. They can improve, but as soon as they are not in perfect shape the issues resurface immediately. I'm not a skater but I imagine it has to do with "muscle memory". A jump happens in such a short span of time that the movements are not consciously controlled, and once your brain has learned to jump in a certain way especially as a child, it's almost impossible to change that, or I assume it would take so much time that a skater's career would be long over. I remember an interview where Yuna said that going into her triple-triple she doesn't think about jumping, meaning that at that point in a skater's life jumps come naturally, therefore completely reworking them would be like learn how to breath differently.
Ashley definitely has done a great job with Raf, especially with the double-footing, but she will always struggle with URs.
Mao :bow:

, did an incredible job after Vancouver, and I'm sure it took a lot of effort to get her jumps at the level they were in Sochi. The quality of all her jumps (minus the loop which has always been awesome) got so much better in 2013 and 2014, and yet the URs never really went away (although especially on the 3axels and 3F-3Lo sometimes she was unfairly penalised).

TGee · Dec 20, 2016

sarama said:
I can't think of a skater who ever managed to completely fix their under-rotation issues. They can improve, but as soon as they are not in perfect shape the issues resurface immediately. I'm not a skater but I imagine it has to do with "muscle memory". A jump happens in such a short span of time that the movements are not consciously controlled, and once your brain has learned to jump in a certain way especially as a child, it's almost impossible to change that, or I assume it would take so much time that a skater's career would be long over. I remember an interview where Yuna said that going into her triple-triple she doesn't think about jumping, meaning that at that point in a skater's life jumps come naturally, therefore completely reworking them would be like learn how to breath differently.
Ashley definitely has done a great job with Raf, especially with the double-footing, but she will always struggle with URs.
Mao , did an incredible job after Vancouver, and I'm sure it took a lot of effort to get her jumps at the level they were in Sochi. The quality of all her jumps (minus the loop which has always been awesome) got so much better in 2013 and 2014, and yet the URs never really went away (although especially on the 3axels and 3F-3Lo sometimes she was unfairly penalised).

Body or muscle memory is the issue I agree... and old patterns will resurface under stress situations, and may muddle things up or even lead to injury....

And this is why access to good coaches with solid tech, and tough judging, during early training is so important....

A lot of folks, especially on the Lutz Corner, advocate a "wait and see" approach for young skaters so that parents don't spend too much if their child doesn't have potential for greatness...just go to the closest club, don't burn money travelling to see a good skate fitter etc...

And I've heard out in the community that "anyone can teach single jumps"...

Or that judges are not being picky about technique at the early stages and letting kids through...

But the outcome of this is skaters with bad technique that can never be fully "fixed"..

Crossover · Dec 20, 2016

Don't male skater tend to become rotating faster than their junior period as they gain more muscles on thighs and legs after their grow spurts are done? IIRC, Jason Brown struggled with UR more in juniors than now when it comes to his triples.

TGee · Dec 20, 2016

Crossover said:
Don't male skater tend to become rotating faster than their junior period as they gain more muscles on thighs and legs after their grow spurts are done? IIRC, Jason Brown struggled with UR more in juniors more than him now when it comes to his triples.

Upper body strength is a factor, and conditioning can help with that, but so is technique....

When young skaters are taught get their rotations from the upper body, and not the legs then leg development can't be exploited. This can be a problem when the centre of gravity changes after puberty, especially for women who do not have the same advantages in upper body strength and have a lower centre of gravity.

Bottom line....having coaches teach poor technique at the single or double jump stage, or technique that only works pre-puberty, is a lousy investment....

The challenge is that widespread reeducation of coaches and reorganization of the system to put importance on critical technique is a huge undertaking.

My sense is that Skate Canada has figured this out. The new CanSkate basic program emphasizes edges and technique early on, and the changes to the STARSkate figure skating standards are really profound. From STAR 1 introductory level up, if you don't have the rotation, you don't get a satisfactory mark on the jump.

See this video example of the absolute entry level of STAR 1....Bronze is not considered satisfactory....Need an overall silver in freeskate, that is most of the elements at silver or higher to advance to STAR 2....look at the assessment sheet at the end which shows that rotation is an essential criteria for the jump, and no more than a 1/4 rotation short is tolerated.

https://vimeo.com/album/4103754/video/179454234

Editing to add...STAR 3 is approximately equivalent to the old Preliminary test level....So this means that skaters are assessed fairly rigorously from what would be the No Test or Pre-preliminary level...

Crossover · Dec 20, 2016

^ Wow thanks TGee! The spread sheet in the video is impressive and I love the way Skate Canada designates levels of a jump execution like Gold, Silver and Bronze because it looks encouraging young skaters to do better for next time.

Can skaters fix underrotation problems?

narcissa

Alchamei

mrrice

shiroKJ

Back to the forest you go.

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

moriel

andromache

Ares

da96103

TGee

Tutto

concorde

concorde

Tyranid

solani

sarama

TGee

Crossover

All Hail the Queen

TGee

Crossover

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