Chen edges out Uno for gold in Japan

Upping your TES isn't just limited to adding another quad though. You can have the same number of quads but do the more difficult ones. Yuzuru's hardest quad was the loop in that 4 quad program and both Shoma and Nathan are doing harder quads. They can also raise the quality of the execution and all to up their TES. Or did you mean to talk about BV?

Anyway, I don't think limiting the number of quads done is the only way. The rules should be modified in a way that lets skaters know themselves that hey maybe doing a 5 quad program isn't worth it after all, if those 5 quads can't be done well.

epicdreamer said:

Anyway, I don't think limiting the number of quads done is the only way. The rules should be modified in a way that lets skaters know themselves that hey maybe doing a 5 quad program isn't worth it after all, if those 5 quads can't be done well.

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But they already proved that it can be done? And done with positive execution. In my opinion the arguments are not sound because people want too much, too soon. The skaters have only just upped the tech content like that in the last two seasons. Can't we just wait a while to see where this goes before we start to restrict them? It's going to take a while for them to get used to these difficult programs, but they proved it is possible.

If we take the example of Shoma Uno at the GPF he fell on his opening quad and lost many points there. If he was restricted in the number of quads he can do, there goes his chance to add another better quad later in the program. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

MaiKatze said:

But herein lies the problem. Let's say Yuzuru Hanyu skates a perfect 4 Quad program. We've seen it before, it is possible. Yay, standing ovations, new World Record! So what do you do when your name is Nathan Chen or Shoma Uno? You know you won't beat Yuzuru if you skate a 4 Quad program clean. So....your only possibility to win is having a higher TES! So you take the risk and do one quad more. If it doesn't work, well you tried. If you don't even try, you lose. The men, and that includes Yuzuru, are in a difficult situation. But restricting them in the difficulties they can do, takes away one possible strategy of beating their rivals.

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The thing is, that in figure skating there is no notion of "playing defense." You cannot prevent the other skater from delivering his program. All you can do is skate your program, and try to score as many points as you can.

If Nathan enters the competition with the mind set, "Well, Hanyu is the greatest, so he is going to win no matter what I do," then it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Hanyu with a perfect 4-quad program is going to beat Nathan whether Nathan does 4 quads or 5. If Hanyu opens the door by giving a less-than-perfect skate (always a possibility, even a likelihood given Hanyu's injury and loss of training time) then Nathan has to be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity by making fewer mistakes himself.

So to me, it is the same question whether Hanyu skates well, poorly, or not at all. Nathan should design his program with the goal of scoring as many points as he can. Maybe that means planning as high a base value as possible and then hoping to accomplish most of it; maybe it means concentrating on quality and landing everything on his element card.

Mathman said:

The thing is, that in figure skating there is no notion of "playing defense." You cannot prevent the other skater from delivering his program. All you can do is skate your program, and try to score as many points as you can.

If Nathan enters the competition with the mind set, "Well, Hanyu is the greatest, so he is going to win no matter what I do," then it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Hanyu with a perfect 4-quad program is going to beat Nathan whether Nathan does 4 quads or 5. If Hanyu opens the door by giving a less-than-perfect skate (always a possibility, even a likelihood given Hanyu's injury and loss of training time) then Nathan has to be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity by making fewer mistakes himself.

So to me, it is the same question whether Hanyu skates well, poorly, or not at all. Nathan should design his program with the goal of scoring as many points as he can. Maybe that means planning as high a base value as possible and then hoping to accomplish most of it; maybe it means concentrating on quality and landing everything on his element card.

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Yes, you're right. That argument doesn't really stand the longer I think about it. I believe that the skaters who have these difficult programs skate them clean in practice pretty consistently. So they have the mindset of taking them into competition. Competition, though, is always a different story. I simply don't believe that this GPF is that characteristic of what is to come in the future. Bad competitions happen, with or without quads. I think more time is needed before significant changes in the ruling system should be made. (And well, there are changes coming next season already, with one jumping pass less and a shorter LP for the men so why not wait and see how that goes?)

I do not think that 5 quads are reckless layout for shoma and Nathan.
In Lombardia Trophy 2017, shoma performs a layout of 5 quads with almost no mistake. Nathan also performs 5 quads almost without mistakes in the National.
I think that they are less reckless than the Jason 4T program and Adam's 4Lz layout.
In fact, Nathan's deduction this time is the same as Adam and Jason.
If you are going to change the layout to Nathan or shoma, you should encourage Jason, Javier and Patrick to stop 3A and set it to 2A

rabbit1234 said:

Why do not people complaining about the failure of the jump recommending Javier to stop 3A and do 2A?

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No, no, you've got it all wrong. Fernandez should not stop doing the 3A. He should work hard at it and do it better.

Same with Nathan and his quads. Work on improving the quality of your jumps rather than on adding more of them to your program. What is wrong with Nathan doing 4 quads and 2 triple Axels, and doing them with excellence? That is a tall order, but it is his path to the Olympic gold medal.

Next year he can work on a quad-quad combo! But do it right; don't fall and then pat yourself on the back for trying. As Zen Master Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is no 'try.' "

It is the ladies' single that everyone carries out the same jump and is fighting the GOE.
Is it fun to watch? Do you get excited?
I think that it is impossible for the general public to understand why this competitor has higher points.
Actually, even among judges, GOE is divided into judgments such that a judge is -1, another judge is +2.
Does it make sense to bring a hand during a jump?
It is impossible for the general public to understand.
Moreover, it is impossible to be surprised by the same jump for 30 years.

Well, tell that to people who watch track and field. I mean they've been doing the same thing for like a billion years.
I love watching track and field. Sure it's great to see a Usain Bolt break time records, but some of the most amazing races don't require record breaking -- sometimes the competition between two people provide plenty of excitement on its own. Or the person achieved something amazing for the county they represent.

rabbit1234 said:

It is the ladies' single that everyone carries out the same jump and is fighting the GOE.
Is it fun to watch? Do you get excited?
I think that it is impossible for the general public to understand why this competitor has higher points.
Actually, even among judges, GOE is divided into judgments such that a judge is -1, another judge is +2.
Does it make sense to bring a hand during a jump?
It is impossible for the general public to understand.
Moreover, it is impossible to be surprised by the same jump for 30 years.

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find me one person in this thread that said that we should get rid of quads alltogether

also i think its just in the best interest of the athlete to limit a program to 4 quads, we've seen how much of a physical toll 5+ quads can do to a person. Daniel and Adam's shoulders were dislocated trying the 4lz!! So many athletes out or injured in the first half of the season due to trying too many difficult quads. We mustn't forget that there is more to figure skating than the jumps and the sad truth is that it's neigh impossible to have quality SS, TR, PE, IN in a 5+ quad program, maybe even 4 quad program! It's not fair to flip off the skaters who have worked hard to up their non jumping technical game like how it's been the past two years

Also. I can watch Steph Curry shoot three pointers all day long. Never gets old.

(Sorry Nathan, I know you're a CAVS fan. )

rabbit1234 said:

I think that it is impossible for the general public to understand why this competitor has higher points.

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In my humble opinion what is hard for the general public to understand or accept is, why did this guy win who fell down two or three times, while this other guy skated perfectly but lost?

We understand it, of course, because we know all the peculiarities of the IJS. :yes:

On the other hand, if the goal is to fight boredom there are more ways to do it than by putting an extra revolution onto the same old jumps. If the audience is getting bored, the ISU could award points for Walleys, one-foot Axels ,a toeless Lutz, jumping in both directions, a new cmbination. They just need to use their imaginations.

Mathman said:

In my humble opinion what is hard for the general public to understand or accept is, why did this guy win who fell down two or three times, while this other guy skated perfectly but lost?

We understand it, of course, because we know all the peculiarities of the IJS. :yes:

On the other hand, if the goal is to fight boredom there are more ways to do it than by putting an extra revolution onto the same old jumps. If the audience is getting bored, the ISU could award points for Walleys, one-foot Axels ,a toeless Lutz, jumping in both directions, a new cmbination. They just need to use their imaginations.

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Because it is doing more difficult things.
At the time of Vancouver, did people think that Lysacek should win because there are few mistakes?
In addition, more Quad players are not more mistaken than players with less quads.

Well, this got 51 M views and she only did a single Axel! HOW DARE SHE DO BORING THINGS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

Mrs. P said:

Well, this got 51 M views and she only did a single Axel! HOW DARE SHE DO BORING THINGS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

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If she is at a top level competition, no one will care about her.

rabbit1234 said:

If she is at a top level competition, no one will care about her.

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She's done okay for herself. She got to go to junior worlds last year. She debuted on the junior grand prix and is debuting at nationals as a senior. I don't feel too sorry for her.

rabbit1234 said:

Because it is doing more difficult things.

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You and I know that, but I wonder if this answer satisfies the general audience. "This guy can't skate at all -- look at him picking himself up after yet another fall. He has a bag of tricks, but he is not executing them."

At the time of Vancouver, did people think that Lysacek should win because there are few mistakes?

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Neither Lysacek nor Plushenko made any obvious errors. Lysacek won the LP on TES (they were exactly tied on PCSs). Some fans liked Lysacek for his commitment and attack; some like Plushenko for his grand presence and command. It was an exciting competition that could have gone either way.

In addition, more Quad players are not more mistaken than players with less quads.

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OK. But specifically about Nathan Chen, he gave some dandy performances last year with four quads in a well-skated effort with pretty good spins and footwork and with acceptable presentation, coreography and interpretation.

This year, at Skate America and at the Grand Prix Final, he struggled with his quads and the rest of his program suffered too. He was lucky to win; I don't think that adding an extra quad payed off for him.

Not that Nathan is asking me for my advice.

This is a thought experiment.
Probability of jump

Competitor X with many quads
Probability of a certain quad　33％

Competitor　Y with few quads
Probability of　3A　　　　　　　　　　　 33％

If people are complaining about the failure of the jump and you can reduce the quad for competitor X, they should stop 3A and do 2A for competitor Y.

However, those who complain about the failure of the jump do not say to competitor Y to do 2A instead of 3A.

Because they know that competitor Y loses competitiveness to fight at the top level by it.

After all, those complaining of the failure of the jump are not concerned about the failure of the jump, they just want to pull the feet of the high-level competitor. They are only criticizing competitorX with double standards.

Mrs. P said:

Also. I can watch Steph Curry shoot three pointers all day long. Never gets old.

(Sorry Nathan, I know you're a CAVS fan. )

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I loves me some Stephen Curry.

Brings up a good point though - athletes are all about entertaining with good performances whether basketball or figure skating (I know I know, it's aesthetics).

But shouldn't basketball players hit their 3-pointers more than 50% of the time when facing a tough defender or tennis players never hit any errors even when they're on the run?

So why when figure skaters push for greater risk and difficulty and then happen to fail is the sky falling? As long as the cleanest one prevails.

I'm sure many skaters (and their more fervent fans) would love to see Chen reduce his difficulty so he isn't as much of a threat. But that ain't happening. Sorry bout it! So

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I loves me some Stephen Curry.

Brings up a good point though - athletes are all about entertaining with good performances whether basketball or figure skating (I know I know, it's aesthetics).

But shouldn't basketball players hit their 3-pointers more than 50% of the time when facing a tough defender or tennis players never hit any errors even when they're on the run?

So why when figure skaters push for greater risk and difficulty and then happen to fail is the sky falling? As long as the cleanest one prevails.

I'm sure many skaters (and their more fervent fans) would love to see Chen reduce his difficulty so he isn't as much of a threat. But that ain't happening. Sorry bout it! So

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The thing is when Steph misses his 3 pointers, he gets penalized because he gets zero points for those attempts -- and there were definite times where Steph has super decent looks and STILL missed. Under COP, Steph would have gotten 1 or 2 points (out of three) or something for how pretty the shot was before he missed the basket.

Klay Thompson can also have some major OFF nights. When he does he scores like 5 points. Not like 15 for trying. He only gets 40+ points when he makes shots.

I not necessarily for reducing quads or saying any of these guys should reduce their content, but I feel like there should be a slightly bigger difference between hitting those jumps and those who don't.

I also get that sometimes people barely win or win unpretty; they certainly do in basketball, but this seems beyond unpretty honestly.

I'm a casual fan of gymnastics. It seems in that sport mistakes are penalized much more. I still think if you have a strong BV you can afford a few tiny mistakes. But when there are major, disruptive mistakes, it seems that others get to win.

I also liked in the Balance Bean the gold medalist in Rio, Sanne Weavers, had a completely different style from Simone Biles, who got bronze.

I think it would be nice for the scoring system to enable a variety of strengths in figure skating to shine. Right now it does seem only those who can somewhat land as many quads as possible can thrive. It's kinda like when the NBA was just all iso-ball, all the time. I don't think I want it banned, sometimes it's fun to see the "hero ball" but if that's all we see then it gets boring fast.

Likewise, I don't think i want to reduce quads or if there are skaters who really want to challenge themselves with multi-quad programs fine. But it would be nice other paths to winning or other aspects of the sport to be rewarded well.

And the NBA did make rule changes that enabled more variety in playing style. That doesn't mean big guys can't plan or their style is persona non grata, but it opens it up for different strategy and, frankly, more pretty basketball , to be a more realistic option.

Mrs. P said:

The thing is when Steph misses his 3 pointers, he gets penalized because he gets zero points for those attempts -- and there were definite times where Steph has super decent looks and STILL missed. Under COP, Steph would have gotten 1 or 2 points (out of three) or something for how pretty the shot was before he missed the basket.

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How many 3 point shots can we have in a game and how complicated is a 3 point shot? I don't think IJS creators were as idiotic as equating a quad jump or even a double as a 3 point shot. A 3 point shot needs no judges to score its execution from +3 to -3 or -4, but a figure skating jump does. Comparing skating jump to 3 point shot is nut.