Blades - I got questions!

Aside from working for a blade manufacturer or a skating shop, how does one learn about the different types of blades and materials and how/if they matter?

I'm curious because I'm trying to learn as much as I can as my kiddo continues to skate and well... I'm actually just curious.

I would think things like the durability, (lack of) flexibility, and strength of the metal are all really important for e.g. elite skaters doing quads for 6 hours or more a day. However, for your average single/double jumper under 60lbs, are they simply not exerting enough force or wearing the blade long enough ('cause they grow) for the material to make a difference?

It seems to me that the blade profile can make a huge difference as the skater must adjust to the different skating zones and rockers within them if you change to a new blade. How did the design of modern day blades evolve? Back in the 1920s, were they making blades with different profiles and zones or were they basically flat with toe picks? Does anyone sit around wondering about whether a new "profile" will somehow enhance skating?

Also, how is it that Paramount Skates can "copy" the blade profile of MK and Wilson blades? Maybe you can't patent a blade profile, but it is interesting to me that they are upfront that they match the profiles of MK and Wilson. Are there just a finite number of "accepted" blade profiles out there?

So yeah, that was a bunch of random questions, but like I said, I'm curious about this stuff. If there are online resources and/or books that anyone is aware of, I'd love to hear about them. I'm kinda nerdy that way

SmallAminal said:

Aside from working for a blade manufacturer or a skating shop, how does one learn about the different types of blades and materials and how/if they matter?

I'm curious because I'm trying to learn as much as I can as my kiddo continues to skate and well... I'm actually just curious.

I would think things like the durability, (lack of) flexibility, and strength of the metal are all really important for e.g. elite skaters doing quads for 6 hours or more a day. However, for your average single/double jumper under 60lbs, are they simply not exerting enough force or wearing the blade long enough ('cause they grow) for the material to make a difference?

It seems to me that the blade profile can make a huge difference as the skater must adjust to the different skating zones and rockers within them if you change to a new blade. How did the design of modern day blades evolve? Back in the 1920s, were they making blades with different profiles and zones or were they basically flat with toe picks? Does anyone sit around wondering about whether a new "profile" will somehow enhance skating?

Also, how is it that Paramount Skates can "copy" the blade profile of MK and Wilson blades? Maybe you can't patent a blade profile, but it is interesting to me that they are upfront that they match the profiles of MK and Wilson. Are there just a finite number of "accepted" blade profiles out there?

So yeah, that was a bunch of random questions, but like I said, I'm curious about this stuff. If there are online resources and/or books that anyone is aware of, I'd love to hear about them. I'm kinda nerdy that way

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Time, trial and lots of research.

It's hard to keep up with all the bladechoices and sometimes I too wonder about all the minute differences.
https://skaterslanding.com/pages/blade-comparison-chart


Some random thoughts on blade profiles:


From my experience: I used to skate onGold Seal blades that have an 8' rocker and I can recall spinning being easier (I think this has been mentioned on this forum at leastonce). I got a pair of slightly used Phantoms – which have a 7' rocker - found spinning more challenging but jumping easier. That was umpteen years ago and as an older skater I'd probably have shell-shock if I tried to switch back to Gold Seals. However, a younger skater would likely make a comfortable switch in about 15 –20 minutes.


I have a former Adult competitive skating friend, small in stature, who used to break a blade about once a year doing lutzes. He's not a big guy so I don't know why this periodically happened to him. I haven't bumped into any statistics on how often those triple and quad jumpers break blades. There are some forum contributors that write a lot about blades so perhaps they'll chime in.

BTW SmallAnimal, did you have any luck talking with Harlick about their lighter boots?

I think most importantly, is to find a blade for which the manufacturing is consistent, so once you know what you are really getting in terms of blade profile. Blades of the same model do not all have the same profile, due to the way they are manufactured. One of the reasons Eclipse blades are the only blades endorsed by PSA, is the consistency of their manufacture.

sandraskates said:

It's hard to keep up with all the bladechoices and sometimes I too wonder about all the minute differences.
https://skaterslanding.com/pages/blade-comparison-chart


Some random thoughts on blade profiles:

The style of modern blades have been mostly the same since about the 1900s when toe-picks were introduced.Sometime in the 2000s, American competitor Michael Weiss altered his blades to have the back of the blade be similar to the front –rounded with toe-picks. That allowed him to do that funky move where he's moving on the back of his blades with the front of the blades off the ice. This blade style didn't seem to catch on with any other skaters and I don't know if he even uses them anymore. Look closely at this photo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Stars_on_Ice_2010_in_Manchester_(16).jpg​

From my experience: I used to skate onGold Seal blades that have an 8' rocker and I can recall spinning being easier (I think this has been mentioned on this forum at leastonce). I got a pair of slightly used Phantoms – which have a 7' rocker - found spinning more challenging but jumping easier. That was umpteen years ago and as an older skater I'd probably have shell-shock if I tried to switch back to Gold Seals. However, a younger skater would likely make a comfortable switch in about 15 –20 minutes.


I have a former Adult competitive skating friend, small in stature, who used to break a blade about once a year doing lutzes. He's not a big guy so I don't know why this periodically happened to him. I haven't bumped into any statistics on how often those triple and quad jumpers break blades. There are some forum contributors that write a lot about blades so perhaps they'll chime in.

BTW SmallAnimal, did you have any luck talking with Harlick about their lighter boots?

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Thanks sandraskates! BTW, I did get some info on the Harlick boots just recently - will update in the other thread.

treesprite said:

I think most importantly, is to find a blade for which the manufacturing is consistent, so once you know what you are really getting in terms of blade profile. Blades of the same model do not all have the same profile, due to the way they are manufactured. One of the reasons Eclipse blades are the only blades endorsed by PSA, is the consistency of their manufacture.

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I have a question on this. What does PSA endorsement mean? Did the PSA do an objective comparison of all the blade manufacturers according to a suite of criteria (a la Consumer Reports) and rank them? Or is this a PR gimmick, e.g., paid sponsorship in return for endorsement?

tstop4me said:

I have a question on this. What does PSA endorsement mean? Did the PSA do an objective comparison of all the blade manufacturers according to a suite of criteria (a la Consumer Reports) and rank them? Or is this a PR gimmick, e.g., paid sponsorship in return for endorsement?

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Is there something unique in their manufacturing process? Paramount claims they are the most "accurate" and "consistent" because their blades are all machine made by CNC machines and not hand made. They claim that Eclipse, among others, are hand made and therefore less accurate. I think Riedell in general has the PSA endorsement.

Not saying any of this is worth anything, but I find it interesting. So far we haven't had any issues with the "hand made" Coronation Ace blades, but my skater might not be high-level enough to notice the differences. I get that machines are likely more accurate than humans, but does it matter? Are we dealing with tolerances that are not detectable or have people really had problems with the hand made blades? I would assume they are checked and measured before shipped.

SmallAminal said:

Is there something unique in their manufacturing process? Paramount claims they are the most "accurate" and "consistent" because their blades are all machine made by CNC machines and not hand made. They claim that Eclipse, among others, are hand made and therefore less accurate. I think Riedell in general has the PSA endorsement.

Not saying any of this is worth anything, but I find it interesting. So far we haven't had any issues with the "hand made" Coronation Ace blades, but my skater might not be high-level enough to notice the differences. I get that machines are likely more accurate than humans, but does it matter? Are we dealing with tolerances that are not detectable or have people really had problems with the hand made blades? I would assume they are checked and measured before shipped.

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It may be that your skate tech weeds out the problem ones first. I've talked to ours and she says the inconsistencies in Wilson and MK "hand made" blades are all over the map. She rejects quite a few. We are in Eclipse Mists, the older Eclipse CA "clone". I bought 3 pairs for cheap and they are all perfect. I know our tech favors Ultima blades because of the consistent quality and fewer rejected blades, but the coaches and skaters at the rink where her shop is prefer Wilson and MK, so she does what she has to do to keep the customers happy.

I doubt an organization like PSA would sell advertising. The things I have read do not indicate any payment.

Eclipse blades are made by computer controlled laser.

I found this comparison chart (need to go down the page a little) for similar blades of different manufacturers:

https://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/infinity#.Wp7MKEtOk0M

treesprite said:

I doubt an organization like PSA would sell advertising. The things I have read do not indicate any payment.

Eclipse blades are made by computer controlled laser.

I found this comparison chart (need to go down the page a little) for similar blades of different manufacturers:

https://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/infinity#.Wp7MKEtOk0M

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(1) If computer controlled manufacturing is a dispositive factor for PSA endorsement, then why isn't Paramount endorsed?

(2) But remember, regardless of how the blades were initially made, ultimately they get sharpened by a guy who guides the blade by hand (unless you get the blades sharpened on an auto-feed unit such as a Prosharp). One bad sharpening can screw up a blade for good.

Sibelius said:

It may be that your skate tech weeds out the problem ones first. I've talked to ours and she says the inconsistencies in Wilson and MK "hand made" blades are all over the map. She rejects quite a few. We are in Eclipse Mists, the older Eclipse CA "clone". I bought 3 pairs for cheap and they are all perfect. I know our tech favors Ultima blades because of the consistent quality and fewer rejected blades, but the coaches and skaters at the rink where her shop is prefer Wilson and MK, so she does what she has to do to keep the customers happy.

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Manufacturing consistency is but one factor to take into account. Copies of MK and Wilson blades by other manufacturers are only nominally comparable, not true clones. And some of the differences in design details can significantly affect performance. For example, I switched from the Wilson Coronation Ace to the Eclipse Aurora, because the Aurora was touted to be comparable to the Coronation Ace but is fabricated from 440C stainless steel instead of carbon steel (at about the same price point). But turns out the Aurora has a significantly flatter spin rocker than the Coronation Ace; my coach felt that the flatter spin rocker was messing up my scratch spins, so I ditched the Aurora. Skate techs I've talked to also carp about MK and Wilson; but, to be fair, they must be doing something right, given the many national, world, and Olympic champions who skate with their blades ... and given that other manufacturers nominally copy their designs. I just wish they would start using stainless steel.

tstop4me said:

Manufacturing consistency is but one factor to take into account. Copies of MK and Wilson blades by other manufacturers are only nominally comparable, not true clones. And some of the differences in design details can significantly affect performance. For example, I switched from the Wilson Coronation Ace to the Eclipse Aurora, because the Aurora was touted to be comparable to the Coronation Ace but is fabricated from 440C stainless steel instead of carbon steel (at about the same price point). But turns out the Aurora has a significantly flatter spin rocker than the Coronation Ace; my coach felt that the flatter spin rocker was messing up my scratch spins, so I ditched the Aurora. Skate techs I've talked to also carp about MK and Wilson; but, to be fair, they must be doing something right, given the many national, world, and Olympic champions who skate with their blades ... and given that other manufacturers nominally copy their designs. I just wish they would start using stainless steel.

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Yes, you are right about that. We are fortunate that our tech is one of the best around, so she’d make sure any Wilson or MK would be within spec before they ever got to her skates. I think all the champions would get the same service from their techs as well, and they probably get blades for free, which helps loyalty (as long as they perform well for them). We aren’t sold on anything yet, so the Eclipses were our first step.

What part of the rocker was deficient for you? I’ve lined up the blade on a chart of curves, and it seems the 12” part of the rocker is placed very far forward, closer to the toe pick than on the CA. I know the drag pick on the Mist is bigger than on the MK Pro, so yes, they are not “clones”.

I don’t know what the next blade will be, but we will certainly take everything into account when choosing. Hopefully not too soon though, she’s doing well on what she has and I still have one more size to use before we move on.

Sibelius said:

What part of the rocker was deficient for you? I’ve lined up the blade on a chart of curves, and it seems the 12” part of the rocker is placed very far forward, closer to the toe pick than on the CA. I know the drag pick on the Mist is bigger than on the MK Pro, so yes, they are not “clones”.

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Not sure how closely the Aurora profile matches the Mist profile. Wilson is very-tight lipped about its blade specs. But, according to Paramount's measurements, the Coronation Ace has a compound spin rocker: a 12" radius front spin rocker right behind the drag pick, and a 27" radius intermediate spin rocker in between the front spin rocker and the 7' radius main rocker. According to Eclipse (I e-mailed customer info), the Aurora has a 23" radius spin rocker and a 7' main rocker.


You really need to be wary of the term "comparable" or "equivalent". Here's one egregious example:

http://www.stepskates.com/en/figure-skating-blades

Victory Freestyle

Equivalent blade:

MK Phantom, MK Gold Star, John Wilson Pattern 99, John Wilson Gold Seal, Jackson Elite, Jackson Matrix, Riedell Pinnacle



The group of equivalent blades includes 7 ft rockers and 8 ft rockers, small picks and large picks, high stanchions and low stanchions, small spin rocker radius and large spin rocker radius, ....

That was funny. Man, that's one all purpose blade! The Mist is supposed to be "equivalent" to the Aurora according to Dan at Riedell. I matched the blade to the curve charts I have and it tracks with 7' main, 27" to 12" spin. I don't have a CA or MK Pro to compare but the images seem like the 12" profile on the CA starts further back from the toepick. Hate that it's mostly trial and error at the prices for these things. I suppose if you, coaches and techs can narrow down what you need It's less than a shot in the dark. No wonder that Wilson and MK are the go to's since skaters have used them for years, and if you've got someone to make sure they meet the specs. you'll be ok, if you're on your own, well, good luck to you and I hope you have DEEP pockets!

Sure am lucky I'm not alone in this and we have coaches and a good fitter/tech to help us out.

Sibelius said:

That was funny. Man, that's one all purpose blade! The Mist is supposed to be "equivalent" to the Aurora according to Dan at Riedell. I matched the blade to the curve charts I have and it tracks with 7' main, 27" to 12" spin. I don't have a CA or MK Pro to compare but the images seem like the 12" profile on the CA starts further back from the toepick. Hate that it's mostly trial and error at the prices for these things. I suppose if you, coaches and techs can narrow down what you need It's less than a shot in the dark. No wonder that Wilson and MK are the go to's since skaters have used them for years, and if you've got someone to make sure they meet the specs. you'll be ok, if you're on your own, well, good luck to you and I hope you have DEEP pockets!

Sure am lucky I'm not alone in this and we have coaches and a good fitter/tech to help us out.

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You need to be careful even within a product line. E.g., within the Eclipse line, you would think that the standard (carbon steel) Pinnacle and the Titanium (stainless steel) Pinnacle would have the same overall runner. Yet the standard Pinnacle is listed as side-honed, while the Titanium Pinnacle is listed as parallel edge.

There are some subtle distinctions that you might not even think about. Some (such as blade thickness) may have a minor effect on skating feel. Others (such as length of the runner in the heel portion of the blade) may have a major effect.

Remember, many of today's blade companies simply did not exist when the current generation of experienced coaches were in training: Wilson and MK were the only games in town. Their coaches recommended these blades to them, these blades worked for them and their fellow skaters, so they continue to recommend these blades to their new crop of skaters. Even if you have the money, it takes time to swap out blades and try them out. Most coaches don't have the money or the time.

There have been some attempts (such as by Sidney Broadbent and Skate Science) to redesign blades on the basis of sound physical and engineering principles. But they haven't really caught on. Otherwise, manufacturers have tended to copy, more or less, existing MK and Wilson patterns. They then need to offer nominally the same product at a greatly reduced price, or a superior product at about the same, or slightly higher, price, to have a compelling value proposition, a compelling reason to switch from the tried-and-true. In my opinion, that's why the Eclipse Mist was a flop. It was a nominal copy of the Coronation Ace, but it sold for about the same price (actually the Mist cost about $20 more than the Coronation Ace when I looked at it; prices depend somewhat on currency exchange rates); so what was the compelling reason to buy it? The Aurora at least is fabricated from 440C stainless, with substantially longer edge life, and sells for about the same as the Coronation Ace (about $20 more when I bought it).

What I find surprising is that MK and Wilson (same parent company now) launched their light-weight Revolution series with carbon-fiber composite mounts, yet have been reticent to introduce models with stainless-steel runners. That is where competitors such as Ultima, Eclipse, and Paramount have a compelling advantage: if they get the design details right.

tstop4me said:

Not sure how closely the Aurora profile matches the Mist profile. Wilson is very-tight lipped about its blade specs. But, according to Paramount's measurements, the Coronation Ace has a compound spin rocker: a 12" radius front spin rocker right behind the drag pick, and a 27" radius intermediate spin rocker in between the front spin rocker and the 7' radius main rocker. According to Eclipse (I e-mailed customer info), the Aurora has a 23" radius spin rocker and a 7' main rocker.


You really need to be wary of the term "comparable" or "equivalent". Here's one egregious example:

http://www.stepskates.com/en/figure-skating-blades

Victory Freestyle

Equivalent blade:

MK Phantom, MK Gold Star, John Wilson Pattern 99, John Wilson Gold Seal, Jackson Elite, Jackson Matrix, Riedell Pinnacle



The group of equivalent blades includes 7 ft rockers and 8 ft rockers, small picks and large picks, high stanchions and low stanchions, small spin rocker radius and large spin rocker radius, ....

Click to expand...

It's the only blade you'll ever need. The copy really should say "We get it you really don't know WHAT you want / need only that it needs to be cheaper. Well now we have a deal for you." Who knows it might be the Golilocks of blades.

Though someone needs to buy the one branded as being able to "Tear up the whole rink"

sandraskates said:

The style of modern blades have been mostly the same since about the 1900s when toe-picks were introduced.Sometime in the 2000s, American competitor Michael Weiss altered his blades to have the back of the blade be similar to the front –rounded with toe-picks. That allowed him to do that funky move where he's moving on the back of his blades with the front of the blades off the ice. This blade style didn't seem to catch on with any other skaters and I don't know if he even uses them anymore. Look closely at this photo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Stars_on_Ice_2010_in_Manchester_(16).jpg​

Click to expand...

So believe it or not, I spotted those same blades randomly while watching some youtube videos - I didn't spot them until she did a funky spread eagle kind of move. I wonder how long she's had those blades???

https://youtu.be/5FdeErbbLP0?t=2m43s

SmallAminal said:

So believe it or not, I spotted those same blades randomly while watching some youtube videos - I didn't spot them until she did a funky spread eagle kind of move. I wonder how long she's had those blades???

https://youtu.be/5FdeErbbLP0?t=2m43s

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OH. MY. GOSH! I have never seen anyone other than Michael wearing those blades. Thanks for posting that link.

Now here's the question I have. Isn't it an ISU rule that whatever blade you wear has to be commercially available for all skaters and custom blades aren't allowed.

tothepointe said:

Now here's the question I have. Isn't it an ISU rule that whatever blade you wear has to be commercially available for all skaters and custom blades aren't allowed.

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They were commercially available as the John Watts Freedom model. John Watts is now kaput.