What order jumps are learnt in?

Waltz, Salchow, then toe loop. Currently trying to learn loop and flip. I find it difficult to take off my right foot (ccw jumper) so loop and flip are quite challenging for me. Maybe because I broke my right ankle last year I have this phobia about it.

It took me a while to learn my toe loop but I love doing them now. Salchow is my most comfortable, and waltz feels very 'dangerous' to me.

Figuringitout said:

Yes! I read a thread on toe loop scoring earlier this week, and almost everyone was saying the toe loop was the easiest because it was the lowest scoring.

Maybe the commenters were fans who did not skate themselves because the general consensus on here is that they are quite difficult.

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Toe loops are currently my ONLY good jump (because I cannot frelling two foot both my flip and loop jumps and cannot for the life of me stop doing that). But I think I remember learning jumps as a teen as waltz, salchow, toeloop, flip, loop and then lutz.

Figuringitout said:

Yes! I read a thread on toe loop scoring earlier this week, and almost everyone was saying the toe loop was the easiest because it was the lowest scoring.

Maybe the commenters were fans who did not skate themselves because the general consensus on here is that they are quite difficult.

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They're much, much easier than Salchows for me! I know a few other people at my rink who find toe loops easier as well. We all started skating as children, though. Did most people here start as adults? Maybe toe loops are easier for people who started as children and edge jumps are easier for people who started as adults.

hanyuufan5 said:

Did most people here start as adults? Maybe toe loops are easier for people who started as children and edge jumps are easier for people who started as adults.

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I started skating when i was eight, but im still an edge jumper. The toeloop is my worst jump

Mine is waltz-sal-toe-flip-loop-lutz and Axel-2s-2t-2l-2f. I stopped before getting my 2lz. Went back to the ice 10 years later I got back all my single and 2sal and 2l. I have a bad knees from my competitive tennis career so apparently I can no longer do the toe jumps.

hanyuufan5 said:

Did most people here start as adults? Maybe toe loops are easier for people who started as children and edge jumps are easier for people who started as adults.

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I never considered that but thinking about it now it probably would contribute. Most adult beginners I know (including myself) seem hesitant about using their picks as it's so unnatural but I guess children don't really seem to dwell on these things.

Ducky said:

But I think I remember learning jumps as a teen as waltz, salchow, toeloop, flip, loop and then lutz.

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Is the loop usually taught after the flip? I thought it was common to be taught before the flip?
I guess this comes down to preference of the skater/coach again?

Spinning said:

Mine is waltz-sal-toe-flip-loop-lutz and Axel-2s-2t-2l-2f. I stopped before getting my 2lz. Went back to the ice 10 years later I got back all my single and 2sal and 2l. I have a bad knees from my competitive tennis career so apparently I can no longer do the toe jumps.

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I have the same problem - I ruined my knees playing competitive football (not NFL lol). If I land a jump badly it hurts but luckily they seem to hold up 90% of the time.

Did you find it harder relearning your doubles when you went back?

I don't remember whether I learned toe loop or salchow first as a kid. Probably toe loop. That was with my first skating teacher, whose background was more as a ballet dancer than a skater. When I switched to a more serious skating teacher, I think loop was the next jump we worked on, soon followed by flip. And later lutz, axel, and double salchow (which I was still at beginning stages of learning when I quit).

Also, it seems that 2S is the first double most coaches teach to skaters, because it's most similar to the axel, but opinions vary on whether to teach double toe or double loop next. Or maybe some coaches decide based on which single the skater is strongest at. Same with triples.

One theory I've heard is that (double/triple) toe loop is harder to learn than the salchow, but once it's mastered it's more likely to stay consistent. As an adult, I went years without really practicing single toe, but it was pretty much always there when I needed it.

And, as mentioned, toe loops are more useful for combinations.

Figuringitout said:

I have the same problem - I ruined my knees playing competitive football (not NFL lol). If I land a jump badly it hurts but luckily they seem to hold up 90% of the time.

Did you find it harder relearning your doubles when you went back?

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You're lucky. I can't even dig my toe pick at all course, not to mention the outside edge on the lutz.

The reason I get back to skate is only because my niece needed the coaching hours to fulfill her credits at school. Since she had the experience of being away from the ice (only 2 years but still...), we just followed what she did. I have to do off-ice training for two whole months Before getting on the ice, not just for a single jump but also to build a muscle back in place. I did freak out on the first waltz jump on ice though. The double is definitely harder when you are adult because your weight and height are not the same. And you have to find your new core balances. I tilted to the left for a while. Not sure if this help but doing 2loop off-ice long before start the double is a big plus. You get used to the timing and the elevation.

My problem is not to relearn to jump but to relearn the techniques. My salcow is ugly and horrible. Fixing old habit is the hardest. I think it will be a long while or not at all of having a good 2sal. :sad4:

Good coach, no rush and overcome the frustration(you're no longer your daredevil-self) I guess.

Figuringitout said:

I never considered that but thinking about it now it probably would contribute. Most adult beginners I know (including myself) seem hesitant about using their picks as it's so unnatural but I guess children don't really seem to dwell on these things.

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Hmm, that's very interesting. I started skating and learned Salchows as a child/teenager but learned toe loops as an adult. Nothing about using picks strikes me as unnatural, but I did do bunny hops and mazurkas as a child.

For the people here having trouble with toe loops, did you never learn bunny hops and mazuraks first?

Anyway, the way I was supposed to be taught was bunny hop->mazurka->waltz jump->Salchow->toe loop, then the rest which I never got to and don't know the order of... but I got impatient and tried to do an Axel in when I was still in Basic 1. Ended up doing a waltz jump instead, became quite secure in them... still prefer toe loops to Salchows anyway.

hanyuufan5 said:

For the people here having trouble with toe loops, did you never learn bunny hops and mazuraks first?

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I never officially learnt how to bunny hop, I just copied someone else doing when I first started skating, but my coach has seen it and never felt the need to correct it so I guess it's right?

As for the mazurak, I have to confess I've just had to YouTube it! I've not heard of it until now, so I will definitely ask my coach about it next lesson - hopefully it will help with my toe loop.

hanyuufan5 said:

Hmm, that's very interesting. I started skating and learned Salchows as a child/teenager but learned toe loops as an adult. Nothing about using picks strikes me as unnatural, but I did do bunny hops and mazurkas as a child.

For the people here having trouble with toe loops, did you never learn bunny hops and mazuraks first?

Anyway, the way I was supposed to be taught was bunny hop->mazurka->waltz jump->Salchow->toe loop, then the rest which I never got to and don't know the order of... but I got impatient and tried to do an Axel in when I was still in Basic 1. Ended up doing a waltz jump instead, became quite secure in them... still prefer toe loops to Salchows anyway.

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I learned toe loop before trying a bunny hop. I have never done mazurkas.

I practised at the barrier quite a bit before being comfortable with the toe loop.

Spinning said:

You're lucky. I can't even dig my toe pick at all course, not to mention the outside edge on the lutz.

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Ouch! That sounds both painful and frustrating - I'm suddenly grateful of my knees!

Spinning said:

The double is definitely harder when you are adult because your weight and height are not the same. And you have to find your new core balances. I tilted to the left for a while. Not sure if this help but doing 2loop off-ice long before start the double is a big plus. You get used to the timing and the elevation.

My problem is not to relearn to jump but to relearn the techniques. My salcow is ugly and horrible. Fixing old habit is the hardest. I think it will be a long while or not at all of having a good 2sal. :sad4:

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I'm not sure I'll ever get to doubles but I definitely hope I do one day.
Do you think it could actually be easier learning them for the first time as an adult - as opposed to having to relearn technique as an adult - seeing as you wouldn't have to find your new centre of balance?

hanyuufan5 said:

Did most people here start as adults? Maybe toe loops are easier for people who started as children and edge jumps are easier for people who started as adults.

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I'm an adult skater and my favourite jump is flip by far. Then lutz>loop>sal>toe>>>>>>axel lol. I don't think there's any pattern to it for me.

vlaurend said:

The toe loop is NOT the easiest jump! In fact, it's one of the most difficult jumps to learn to do correctly. I agree with the order of waltz jump, salchow, and THEN toe loop.

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OMG this :thumbsup: Toe loops are harder than loops for me.

hanyuufan5 said:

For the people here having trouble with toe loops, did you never learn bunny hops and mazuraks first?

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It's the turnout that gets me because of the way you need to keep your right leg (as a CCW rotator) turned out rather than making a reverse J sort of shape on the ice. A lot of adults have toe axels yeah.

hanyuufan5 said:

They're much, much easier than Salchows for me! I know a few other people at my rink who find toe loops easier as well. We all started skating as children, though. Did most people here start as adults? Maybe toe loops are easier for people who started as children and edge jumps are easier for people who started as adults.

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I don't think so.
I myself prefer neither toepick-assisted nor edge jumps, and I think it's not the only variable one has to take into account, when it comes to preferring certain jumps.

My favourite ones are flip and loop, but I hate the salchow, because I don't like the back inside edge take-off, since my outside edges are stronger (hence my liking the loop so much).
And I don't like the toe loop, because you have to twist your body in an awkward position for take-off, whereas the take-off for flip and loop feels really smooth compared to that (the loop happens almost on its own really, you don't have to do much).
And I like both, pushing off of an edge or that vaulting feeling you get from the toepick. For me a nice take-off does not depend on the part of the blade that I push off, but on getting the timing right.

I think the fact that so many adults struggle with the toe loop could be for different reasons:

From what I observed, many coaches don't care about adults or think they're not capable of more, so they don't care to give them enough corrections and they end up doing toe-waltzes forever

Depending on how active they've been earlier in their life, their coordination skills might be lacking, nevermind that learning a new sequence of movement becomes more difficult with age. And since the toe loop requires you to twist your body in a somewhat weird angle, I imagine this is rather uncomfortable for adults and they will have a tendency to bypass it with a take-off that feels more comfortable or 'natural' to them, wheres children maybe don't perveive it as uncomfortable because they're more "bendy" and are still more receptive do learn new movements?

I've also seen adults getting the same corrections on their toe loop countless times without applying any of them, without even attempting to do it in a different way... maybe that is also due to being less flexible mentally when it comes to learning new movements, especially once you get stuck on doing it a certain way...?

I teach jumps in the order they come in the USFS curriculum, although concede that some skaters get them in a different order. I definitely teach bunny hops and mazurkas before toe loops. A bunny hop teaches how to push through the rocker of the jumping foot so that the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice, as well as how to bring the knee up on the free leg. A mazurka starts like a back pivot and ends like a bunny hop. It teaches you to reach back, pick, and draw through, which is the takeoff for the toe loop. A toe loop starts like a mazurka and ends like a waltz jump.

When you're doing a toe loop, pay attention to where the free leg is. If it's behind you when you jump and comes up and through like a waltz jump, it means you turned forward on the toe pick first and you're doing a toe-waltz. The free leg needs to draw through when you pick, as in a mazurka, so when you jump it's already moving through.

Even before all of this, there are side toe hops and ballet jumps, which help the skater get comfortable with the toe picks.

Figuringitout said:

Ouch! That sounds both painful and frustrating - I'm suddenly grateful of my knees!




I'm not sure I'll ever get to doubles but I definitely hope I do one day.
Do you think it could actually be easier learning them for the first time as an adult - as opposed to having to relearn technique as an adult - seeing as you wouldn't have to find your new centre of balance?

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Nothing wrong with setting yourself a goal. You have nothing to loose. Footballers are normally equipped with agility. You might have some advantages here.

I think both who starts late and the one who starts early have different obstructions. And it depends largely on individual strength and weakness. I have a friend who start when she was 21 and took her only 18 months to get the axel and 2 doubles. Her jumps are better than most people too. But according to her none of her doubles sticked. It took more efforts to keep up her skating practices and lessons (which is costly and time-consuming). Her coach is very effective and dedication though.

Clarice said:

When you're doing a toe loop, pay attention to where the free leg is. If it's behind you when you jump and comes up and through like a waltz jump, it means you turned forward on the toe pick first and you're doing a toe-waltz. The free leg needs to draw through when you pick, as in a mazurka, so when you jump it's already moving through.

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I had to check this on the floor to see what you were talking about, and it seemed not possible to have the free leg behind. The only way I could imagine that happening, would be if the skater did not do a proper long enough back edge before jumping.As a kid, I had long pre-jump edges drilled into me pretty well.

As an older returning adult, when doing a jump for the first time with the coach, she doesn't have to explain them first, but has to fix my sloppiness and timing. When I started doing toe loops with her, I specifically told her I thought I was turning too much on my toe, and she said I wasn't, that they were okay. On salchows, her complaint is that my back inside edge needs to be longer. But on waltz jumps, I get a plethora of complaints, because I rush everything, don't bring the legs and arms through in proper timing, nor turn my head in correct timing, and I don't do enough forward edge before I jump (I think I'm afraid I will trip on my toe). We only worked on loops once, at the wall because I have a habit of doing half loops by not correctly shifting my weight. I am still too afraid to work on flips (was always my favorite jump when I was younger, so sometimes I will do the entry and stop when it comes time to put the toe pick in the ice). I always hated the feeling of lutzes, so I don't think I will ever do them again.