US Ladies and Nerves

Parksideprince · Oct 23, 2018

Good evening,

This is my first post on this forum and I'm not sure if you are allowed to criticize here or not. One of the things that has bothered me for over 10 years with US ladies figure skating is the fact that our ladies for some reason cannot perform when it comes to the world stage. I have seen it with Michelle Kwan Sasha Cohen Ashley Wagner Gracie Gold, Karen Chen and Mirai Nagasu. See the problem is when they were at nationals, for some reason, they can skate their asses off but, when it comes to Grand Prix events, the Grand Prix final, the world championships or Olympics they fail. Brady Tennell is the latest example of this. Tara Lipinski even said during commentating that Brady had landed that triple Lutz, triple loop combination six times during practice but as soon as she gets to the short program at Skate America she falters with a triple Lutz, single loop. She gets to the free Program and it's a triple Lutz, triple loop but she swings too wild with the wide leg and loses grade of execution points and she says well you know it threw me off, I don't know why I did it but I'm gonna go home and work harder in practice. That's what they all say. Why is it you can do it in practice and then when the lights are on you fall apart? Why is it the Japanese and Russians can do it in practice and when the lights are on? Is there anybody Else that shares my frustration at this phenomenon? Any theories?

Seren · Oct 23, 2018

Welcome to the forum!

I’m not sure I would add Michelle Kwan in that list- she is a 5 time world champion with 2 Olympic medals (and In 50 years I will be in the nursing home with dementia going off on how Michelle was robbed!).

The answer to your question is pretty complicated. But USFS has been taking steps to help the US ladies.

nervosa · Oct 24, 2018

Welcome to the forum.

I won't presume to offer any kind of complete answer to this question, but one thing to note here is that US ladies are currently not especially dominant in figure skating.

I don't personally know too much about the careers of Michelle Kwan or Sasha Cohen, but Karen Chen, Mirai Nagasu, Bradie Tennell, etc... They're rarely favorites in international competition. They are not skaters who go on year long win streaks like Evgenia Medvedeva or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, so I think constantly being underdogs but simultaneously being under pressure to perform as the only main contenders for the US might not be doing favors for their consistency and confidence.

lesnar001 · Oct 24, 2018

Seren said:
Welcome to the forum!

I’m not sure I would add Michelle Kwan in that list- she is a 5 time world champion with 2 Olympic medals (and In 50 years I will be in the nursing home with dementia going off on how Michelle was robbed!).

The answer to your question is pretty complicated. But USFS has been taking steps to help the US ladies.

I assume you mean 1998, because in 2002 there was no way she was robbed.

But I agree 1000% that Michelle should not be on this list.

5 Gold Medals at Worlds says it all.
Also the only time she finished lower than 4th at Worlds was when she was 13!

Cindy1983 · Oct 24, 2018

Mistakes are gonna happen. Someone in another thread said the fact that Bradie didn't attempt the combo later, bu tacked a single onto a triple shows inexperience. What that is is lack of strategy, not nerves.

She may not have felt well that day. Why do skaters skate when not 100%, I'll never know.

She could be one that peaks late season. She delivered at Worlds and did well, esp after being all but written off after the Olympics.

I do perdict there will be turnover in American ladies skating in the next year or 2. I also think there needs to be some coaching turnover.

hippomoomin · Oct 24, 2018

I think "nerves" is such a mysterious word to explain performances below expectation. First of all, if a skater can hardly skate clean or has a low success rate on certain jumps during practice, and then failed the jump during a competition, that is not nerves at all.

Then nerves can be associated with confidence, related to the level of training. I believe the most consistent skaters (Eteri's girls and Satoko) do run-throughs a lot, and do clean run-throughs during practices. So they are less likely to doubt themselves in competitions.

Also experiences matter. Russian and Japanese skaters have numerous domestic competitions, which help them to build experiences and confidence.

Bradie just has not participated in many international competitions, and probably has not practiced Plan B or Plan C if Plan A did not work, but Eteri's girls surely did (e.g., Alina added a 3loop later when the first one failed at the Olympics). Perhaps the choreographer should also be involved in making Plan B, C...

Shayuki · Oct 24, 2018

They just don't have the same kind of competition routine that the Japanese and especially Russian skaters do. They don't compete from such a young age nor do they compete nearly as frequently. I also feel like there are some issues with preparation. It's not like these Russian skaters simply decide on the fly what they're going to do. They've gone through all the different scenarios of struggling on certain jumps and know what they need to do to make up for it. For Bradie, I don't think that it's nerves, really. It's just poor preparation.

draqq · Oct 24, 2018

I think the answer is more skater-specific than nation-specific. Skaters are never 100% at every competition. Zagitova is known for her consistency but she can bomb like at last year's Worlds. Medvedeva is technically brilliant but she can screw up jumps every now and then too. And Satoko didn't fare well at Japan Open (nor did Nathan Chen). And on the day of competition, mistakes can be caused by everything from the stress of the lights and the audience, the lack of preparation, over-preparation, jet lag, having a bad warm-up, just not feeling right on a particular day, the temperature of the ice, costume mishaps, who knows.

The one thing that the Russian senior ladies have right above the field is extreme competition from the juniors. There is an absolutely need to do well to stay relevant because there are just so many Russian ladies to choose from and all of them tend to perform high-quality jumps. In the US, the competition isn't as concentrated. Even with the mistakes Tennell made here, she will still probably be the top US contender; that said, she did extremely well at the Autumn Classic earlier this year, winning over Medvedeva. So it's unclear if her performance from Skate America are 'nerves' or just a fluke.

moriel · Oct 24, 2018

if we talk about american skaters in general, they seem to have way less international experience than their competition.
For example, most russian and japanese girls compete as juniors internationally for lets say 2 years, but at least 1. So a 15-16 years old already did 5+ big international competitions.
For americans, doing JGP is sort of a new thing.

Jeanie19 · Oct 24, 2018

I also blame the media hype. The U.S. has been waiting for the next Michelle Kwan. It is not realistic or healthy to put that added pressure on a skater. And the U.S. needs to promote juniors more. The Japanese, Korean and of course the Russian junior ladies are dominant.

andromache · Oct 24, 2018

Jeanie19 said:
I also blame the media hype. The U.S. has been waiting for the next Michelle Kwan. It is not realistic or healthy to put that added pressure on a skater. And the U.S. needs to promote juniors more. The Japanese, Korean and of course the Russian junior ladies are dominant.

The ridiculous amount of pressure on young Russian girls doesn't seem to hurt them. I'm over this narrative of blaming media hype for skaters' problems.

Ladies' skating has evolved in such a way where if you aren't in the international conversation by age 14-15 in juniors, then you're very unlikely to ever get there as a senior. Ladies have to make skating their full-time job at an incredibly young age, and there aren't a whole lot of American parents out there who are willing to pay for that. Even the ones who could pay for it are (probably rightfully) skeptical about the wisdom of having their nine-year-old daughter become a full-time figure skater. So there's just a lot less talent in the pipeline. Less talent in the pipeline means less intensive internal competition, which is going to yield weaker results.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there are UR/technique issues going ignored at lower levels that go on for too long and are then unable to be addressed. Internal US competitions should all be as strict on URs as they were at Skate America. Force skaters and coaches to address UR problems while it is easy to fix them.

Tutto · Oct 24, 2018

I don't think it is fair to say that Russian & Japanese ladies always skate well under pressure as with all the Russian dominance the last 2 World podiums had 1 Russian in 2017 and none in 2018. Pogorilaya, Radionova, Tutktamysheva, Sotnikova (the list can go on) all had some meltdowns in their careers . Only Medvedeva stands out as a truly consistent skater, and it remains to be seen if that continues now when she finally got a woman's body (surprisingly it always happens to Eteri's skaters right after the Olympics regardless of their age - sorry just an observation)
It is simply that the Americans do not have such a large pool of skaters like Japanese and Russians. I hope Gracie's comeback will be a success because sorry to say it but she has more natural talent than Bradie.

Spirals for Miles · Oct 24, 2018

Evgenia is almost 19. She has gone through puberty long ago.

RobinA · Oct 24, 2018

I don't really think that nerves are a problem that American ladies have more problems with than anyone else. Marin Honda did it in the short and then fell apart in the long. Some skaters have a tendency to put themselves out of it in the short and then kill the long. Every skater out there has blown something because of nerves, and it's pretty common to see people nailing stuff in practice that they can't manage in competition. My read on the current "problem" with the US Ladies is lack of depth stemming from being somewhat behind technically. Why this is I don't know.

As far as Michelle Kwan - not that she never came in below potential due to nerves, but that girl was an example of a skater who usually did NOT let nerves get in her way.

moriel · Oct 24, 2018

andromache said:
The ridiculous amount of pressure on young Russian girls doesn't seem to hurt them. I'm over this narrative of blaming media hype for skaters' problems.

Ladies' skating has evolved in such a way where if you aren't in the international conversation by age 14-15 in juniors, then you're very unlikely to ever get there as a senior. Ladies have to make skating their full-time job at an incredibly young age, and there aren't a whole lot of American parents out there who are willing to pay for that. Even the ones who could pay for it are (probably rightfully) skeptical about the wisdom of having their nine-year-old daughter become a full-time figure skater. So there's just a lot less talent in the pipeline. Less talent in the pipeline means less intensive internal competition, which is going to yield weaker results.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there are UR/technique issues going ignored at lower levels that go on for too long and are then unable to be addressed. Internal US competitions should all be as strict on URs as they were at Skate America. Force skaters and coaches to address UR problems while it is easy to fix them.

This is also changing, but until recently americans, both skaters and fans, seemed to have a massive "clean skate above everything" mentality. So, for example, having a major number of URs didnt seem to be an issue until judges called those, and then everybody would be like "ohhh wow, that girl maybe rotated everything, but she fell, and our skater went clean, we should have won", while that is not how CoP works.

Am i mistaken or 6.0 is still used at local competitions in USA?

Shayuki · Oct 24, 2018

Tutto said:
I don't think it is fair to say that Russian & Japanese ladies always skate well under pressure as with all the Russian dominance the last 2 World podiums had 1 Russian in 2017 and none in 2018. Pogorilaya, Radionova, Tutktamysheva, Sotnikova (the list can go on) all had some meltdowns in their careers . Only Medvedeva stands out as a truly consistent skater, and it remains to be seen if that continues now when she finally got a woman's body (surprisingly it always happens to Eteri's skaters right after the Olympics regardless of their age - sorry just an observation)
It is simply that the Americans do not have such a large pool of skaters like Japanese and Russians. I hope Gracie's comeback will be a success because sorry to say it but she has more natural talent than Bradie.

What an observation... Medvedeva's had "a woman's body" for years. That's like saying that this one Finnish 57-year-old figure skater doesn't yet have a "woman's body" because she's very thin. Who knows, perhaps she'll have puberty at 60.

You shouldn't confuse fitness for maturity or lack thereof.

Jeanie19 said:
It is not realistic or healthy to put that added pressure on a skater. And the U.S. needs to promote juniors more.

I think that it is telling of the US fed's attitude that they wanted to increase age limits for 2022 Olympics even though Alysa Liu would be first-year eligible there and should be the biggest podium threat they'll have had in a while.

On the pressure, I agree that it oftentimes is a bit over the top. I think that one part of fixing it would be exposing the skaters to such high pressure scenarios from a younger age. The other would, of course, be to stop hyping them up so much. But I feel like that's not even specific to figure skating.

moriel · Oct 24, 2018

Or Liz Tursynbayeva, who appearently will never go through puberty, because she has same body as Trusova and other kids, and will always have.

BillNeal · Oct 24, 2018

I thought Ashley Wagner showed nerves of steel at Worlds 2016, being the last skater of the entire competition in her home country, after many ladies in that final group had very strong skates. She had the skate of her life to move up two places to take the silver medal. Disregarding the last two years, she generally thrived in international competition.

concorde · Oct 24, 2018

moriel said:
Am i mistaken or 6.0 is still used at local competitions in USA?

Just at the lower, lower levels 6 0 is still used.
Pre-juv depends on the competition -sometimes 6.0 and sometimes IJS. Use of IJS is new this year.
Juv and up - IJS only

I think the "open" levels use 6.0 rather than IJS but not sure.

concorde · Oct 24, 2018

Seren said:
But USFS has been taking steps to help the US ladies.

Exactly what are those?

Team USA members do see a sports therapist but that program has been in place for several years.

There is now in international Novice series but that has not addressed the anxiety issue for some of these skaters.

Unless your skater is born a competitor, then the parents are typically on their own to figure out what works for their child. Which means more
Money (therapy bills) for the family.

US Ladies and Nerves

Parksideprince

Seren

Wakabond Forever

nervosa

lesnar001

Cindy1983

hippomoomin

Shayuki

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

moriel

Jeanie19

andromache

Tutto

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

RobinA

moriel

Shayuki

moriel

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...

concorde

concorde

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