- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
Intellectually?
2018-2019 Season - New rules
- Thread starter enzofv
- Start date
Intellectually?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
not like i agree with the new BVs
but i could say that one explanation is that a very few number of men do the harder quads, and they tend to learn the one that is easiest for them, for instance, the 4lutz being more often attempted than the the 4flip or 4loop.. it's probably easier for some as they get big air on their 3ltz... so the thinking would be, statistically, the quads are all very difficult and someone COULD learn a 4a without ever being able to do a 4lutz or 4 flip or even a 4 loop....
However, there is enough data already to show that there is a huge gap between the other triples and the 3a... most women cannot do the 3a... but nowadays, many have all other triples... many junior boys have all triples but still struggle with the 3a...
so that could be an argument for that. There is IN REALITY a big difference between those jumps while the harder quads are mastered by too few skaters to constitute accurate data, and also, as mentioned, some skaters can get a 4lutz much easier than a 4salchow for instance... so why risk giving the 4a a huge BV and then realizing that it's really uneven in the end???
As far as I am concerned, since nobody is even attempting the jump yet in competition, that's really not a big worry... it won't have any impact
What we need for pairs and singles free skating is one or two elements where skaters can choose to do whatever element they wish to do- listed or unlisted- there is a fixed based value and it is solely judged on GOE. So if they want to have a second twist or a third jump pass or another lift or another death spiral, they can.
Yeah but you forgot someone has already declared he would like to try it. And they deliberately dropped to BV to this extent. When a 4 revolutions quad lutz jump ( which is cheated by some skaters who's known can land it and judges ignore it sometimes ) has almost the same BV as a 4.5 revolutions jump, you know there's something wrong with the head of people who propose this number. It's still a nonexistent jump because of the difficulty and they curse it aside already.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
honestly, if you guys want to look at real issues in BV, look at the pairs throws. enough said.
PS i really don't think the ISU offficial are looking at what skaters have said they may add or not add in their arsenal before making rules. I think the uproar about the 4a in here is exaggerated... it's not like anyone has yet landed the jump... and furthermore, this will prevent skaters to try it in competition unless it's fully rotated. Isn't that what we want?
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
Lol, your argument is that since no one has attempted a 4A yet, it's possible that it's not that much harder than a 4Lz...
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
that's not what i said at all.
i said that for a skater, it could happen that they never land a quad loop or a quad flip, yet land a 4a... artur dimitriev junior was trying a 4a at one point... did he ever land any of the other exotic quads?
Orser said about this student Gogolev, that he was letting him learn the quads as they were coming.. there is no order and as a matter of fact, Stephen also picked up the lutz before loop and flip...
So my point, is that at this moment, there is no reason to give a crazy high base value to the 4a, which would perhaps simply encourage wrongly skaters to try it, even if underrotated or cheated.
It's clear that the ISU is trying here to reward clean jumps with the changes in BV and GOE they are coming up with... so having a much higher BV for the 4a at that point would be going against that if skaters do not land it cleanly but try it just for "points"
In the end, when I talk about stats in here, it is very simple : take a bell curve... take the top 50 skaters in the world and you will see where there is a big gap. There is a big gap between the triples and the 3a... and then between the 3a to any of the quads, there is another gap... but then...the sample is so small (and completely non-existing when it comes to the 4a) that there is no point making a distinction in base values more than the one already there.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
other than wanting super clean throws... there is none.. i am very disappointed with that... i mean, there is no longer much incentive to go for anything higher than a 3loop throw
Tell that to people who attempt quad lutz without it being fully rotated, but still get the score. Now can I ask you why these skaters can keep attempting quad lutz with questionable technique while you wanna restrict quad axel? See more skaters do questionable quad lutz this season, thanks to the BV. And they will get the pass, too. No call for some skaters like usual. Lol.
Yes. I also noticed that the value of the quad twist has marginally decreased, whilst the double and triple twist has slightly increased.
Makes sense...not
Yes. a good example of a questionable lutz was Aliev's 4Lz, which an italian commentator pointed out was technically a loop (rittberger) because he used the entire blade on his vaulting foot to take off for the lutz.
The 4A is like the Nessie of men figure skating. It's not as easy doable as the other quads. Not just because of the extra 0,5 rotation but also the technique. And i don't know why some think that we can see soon many men land 4A as much as 4lz (which is the quad the most cheated or URed surely)
And easy way to get score, too. Now I'm not a skater so I can't tell the difficulty of each jump, but fact just show that many more skaters attempt quad lutz than flip or loop. So I wouldn't even say quad lutz is the hardest tech other than axel, and the BV of quad lutz only encourage skaters who don't really master the technique attempt it. They know the judges don't have glasses LOL.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
Yes, in all the years ... except oops, nobody has ever even landed a 4A in competitions.
And of course, just because that hypothetical someone, that hasn't shown up in decades, may exist, that totally negates the difficulty of the 4A. Totally.
Right, not like this is a professional organization, that knows the ranking of difficulties of figure skating jumps, so let us be dilettantes who are going to "risk" giving a 4A a huge BV only to realize that is not such a difficult jump after all.
Makes sense. Totally. Not.
You would fit in ISU so well.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
No, no one has landed it in competition. It's a unicorn! You said in another thread you liked unicorns. Wouldn't a higher BV encourage unicorns being in the competition because people would train for it seriously and try it?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
don't accuse me of anything...
i gave an hypothetical explanation as of why the ISU may have not pushed the 4a to a higher value.. i am not the ISU nor making the rules... sometimes, trying to find explanations doesn't mean we agree with them.. it just means we can think outside of our reality... opening our minds to see how others can think
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
Yes, in all the years ... except oops, nobody has ever even landed a 4A in competitions.
And of course, just because that hypothetical someone, that hasn't shown up in decades, may exist, that totally negates the difficulty of the 4A. Totally.
Right, not like this is a professional organization, that knows the ranking of difficulties of figure skating jumps, so let us be dilettantes who are going to "risk" giving a 4A a huge BV only to realize that is not such a difficult jump after all.
Makes sense. Totally. Not.
You would fit in ISU so well.
thank you!
don't accuse me of anything...
i gave an hypothetical explanation as of why the ISU may have not pushed the 4a to a higher value.. i am not the ISU nor making the rules... sometimes, trying to find explanations doesn't mean we agree with them.. it just means we can think outside of our reality... opening our minds to see how others can think
Lol you're trying to understand ISU, which pass a flutz and loop as lutz. I'm good with my reality, thanks. They made this rule with e and !, but they don't even review all the jumps and certain skaters get the easy pass. What's there to understand...
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
I'm simply sad if BV of 4A is decreased and there is only a little difference between other quads. Honda said in the last season BV of 15 points on 4A were not enough, there should be about 20. I'm not a skater so I can't imagine, but extra half rotation is extra half rotation, it must be hard for the skaters to do.
