Barbie or Bratz? | Golden Skate

Barbie or Bratz?

Barbie or Bratz

  • Barbie

    Votes: 45 91.8%

  • Bratz

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • Total voters
    49
Mathman

Mathman

Zamboni Driver
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Mike Burg (business agent of several skaters including Tara Lipinski), quoted in an article about how figure skating might regain its "buzz," says "Figure skating is Barbie, the X Games is Bratz."

In the same Detroit Free Press story by Jo-ann Barnas, Tanith Belbin suggests adding hip-hop to the list of rhythms for the Compulsory Dance and Todd Eldredge says we need to reach out to a younger and hipper audience by skating to Eminem.

At a time when exteme sports seems to be the future of the Olympic games, do you like these suggestions for updating the sport? Should we start talking about hanging a 1080 Lutz?
 
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I thought this was going to be about the actual DOLLS, in which case I'd have to go with Barbie because those Bratz dolls look entirely too trampy....:laugh: :laugh:

Personally, I feel hip-hop in general has entirely too choppy a rhythm to make an especially enjoyable rhythm for a CD; a little of it might work in a FD but that would depend I think on the couple. And I can just IMAGINE the bizarre posturing this would lead to; couples look silly enough doing the Jive, with all that obnoxious hand-waving. And can you just imagine some of these dudes coming out there with 40 pounds of "bling" on? Personally, as music, I like hip-hop, I just have no desire to see it "infiltrate" Ice Dance (or really any other branch of skating). I really don't even like the use of Rock or Pop in skating most of the time; I've only seen about 2 programs using that type of music that I've actually enjoyed; the rest I found pretty tedious. Skating should FLOW; a lot of rock and hip-hop does not FLOW. Now, on the other hand, there is TONS of 80s New Wave out there that would be FABULOUS for programs.

[A rather emberassing confession that also dates me, but WTH: As a teenager, when New Wave pop was quite the thing, I used to choreograph programs to a lot of these songs in my head. I still think most of them would be doable.]
 
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I'm not into hip hop either (try opera) but on the TV show So You Think You Can Dance I was amazed to see what a universal language it has become. Beyond that, the whole idea of a rigid line between "serious" and "popular" art forms has been eroded in the last few decades. I'm a dinosaur and get most of my pleasure from the "elite" forms, but even I like those forms to be shaken up and open to the new. Otherwise they die.

I don't see how skating can expect to be taken seriously on the artistic side, let alone keep winning new fans, if it closes itself off to new music.

As long as the tech rules stay the same, there's no reason to fear programs would degenerate into jiggles. Although it might take a while for choreographers to learn to function well in the new style.

I'd also like to see more women skating in pants. While I'm open to hip-hop, I'm NOT open to these young girls being pressured to expose and sexualize themselves still further. At least when they do it now in their "Barbie" costumes, there is a thin veneer of gentility to prohibit porno-style moves and to protect them from outright leers.
 
JonnyCoop said:
I thought this was going to be about the actual DOLLS, in which case I'd have to go with Barbie because those Bratz dolls look entirely too trampy....:laugh: :laugh:
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:agree: :agree:
I inundated my nieces with Sailor Moon paraphernalia when they were into dolls because they were interested in Bratz. If they were going to have influence I wanted it to be about love and friendship and maybe they would learn some fighting skills too - which they did.

Interesting to know that I am not alone with the music aspect. Not that I don't like the music - God forbid I say one thing open ended and I will start being called a Classical music hater and have to send out 20 PMs to try and clarify my opinion is not skewed by such a thing - just that I think the music could also change with the times - as all things can evolve, but not lose their essence.

Was chatting more with friends about some of this popularity "stuff" and the idea of having a skating challenge came up. Much like the Quarterback challenges. Something like, how high one can jump, most spins, fastest skater, most centered on a specific mark, even a "abbreviated version" of Figures.
 
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I have nothing against incorporating new styles of music — I mean, how many times have we all groaned over hearing Carmen, again? However, incorporating rap music into many of the disciplines would be problematic, in that lyrics are not allowed, and rap is all about lyrics. Often there is very little melody, only a beat. This would prove extremely dull for a 4 1/2 minute program. I imagine that's why we haven't already seen some try rap. I can't see pairs working particularly well to rap. I've seen show programs to rap from singles that work quite well, but they were show programs, not competitive ones. I have to agree that I shudder a bit at the thought of rap in the already often over-the-top ice dance category. Some of the costumes are barely there as it is. I also think it would be problematic to use rap simply because of the offensive and expletive-prone lyrics that permeate much of the form. Can't say I'm all that eager, frankly, to see dance couples shake their thing to lyrics about hoes and bitches.

As somebody else already mentioned, there's a reason classical is still a favorite in figure skating — the music flows, just as the blade across the ice should.

Further, I'm not sure adding a new genre of music is really what the sport needs to grab more popularity. I think many of that audience they would be trying to attract would simply see it as dumb posturing bastardizing their musical form on the part of skating, rather than a turn-on.
 
rain brings up a very good point re. THOSE LYRICS. There would have to be a lot of bleeping going on most of the time, which wouldn't exactly help the flow of the music either. And I don't even want to think of --er -- "potential literal interpretations" of the music. (Lobacheva & Averbukh's excessively trashy Jive OD from Nagano is as close to this type of thing as I would ever care to see.)

I do agree that skaters need to be looking to other sources for music. I am quite frankly disappointed at the "tunnel vision" that choreographers and coaches show in this department. (Can't really blame the skaters, most of them are too young to be able to know what all is out there). There are tons of FABULOUS, truly different, things out there that would make great programs in the hands of the right people. Various types of folk music (the REAL THING, not the "classical" version of it, tho nothing wrong with that either if it hasn't been DONE TO DEATH), Worldbeat, "lounge", even some types of punk -- I always thought Bourne & Kraatz could do great stuff to a lot of Siouxsee & The Banshees stuff. This is just to name a few alternate options, and yes, we do see stuff like this on occasion, but not on enough of them, ususally it's like OK, let's trundle out that damn Bizet again... I think they're afraid of alienating the judges if they get too far off the beaten track, but first of all, under CoP the fallout, if any, would not be as bad as it would have under 6.0, and secondly, I do think in this department, the judges actually DON'T get enough credit. I'm sure they'd like to hear something new too; after all, if WE are tired of hearing Carmen for the 3,477th time, can you imagine how many MORE times over the years THE JUDGES have had to hear it?????
 
JonnyCoop said:
I do agree that skaters need to be looking to other sources for music. I am quite frankly disappointed at the "tunnel vision" that choreographers and coaches show in this department. (Can't really blame the skaters, most of them are too young to be able to know what all is out there). There are tons of FABULOUS, truly different, things out there that would make great programs in the hands of the right people. Various types of folk music (the REAL THING, not the "classical" version of it, tho nothing wrong with that either if it hasn't been DONE TO DEATH), Worldbeat, "lounge", even some types of punk -- I always thought Bourne & Kraatz could do great stuff to a lot of Siouxsee & The Banshees stuff.
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I didn't really want to delete any of that post - liked it ALL - but that is what stood out to me and gives me warm fuzzy feelings when I read some of this. I am not a rap fan by any means, but I have found some songs I truly find wonderful. There are some very "tame in comparison" rap tunes out there that also have very few lyrics and the melody / "head" could be over lapped without any difficulty whatsoever IMO - and the complexity of the music is practically nonexistent making this VERY easy. But rap I don't think would be a choice over Hip Hop or RnB.

Anyway I love this thread. I believe it was one of, if not thee, first topic I ever posted here and LOVE that it is again a topic of discussion. Especially that it wasn't "the dread pirate SeaniBu" who brought it up.
 
Well, if that older English judge on the dance contest could enjoy the rap dances I'm sure skating judges could too.

ITA re the nasty lyrics but I understand that there are quite a few artists who are trying to change that. Doesn't skating have rules to take care of that? IF not, can't it invent them?

BTW, why the no-lyrics rule in the first place?

ETA: Oops, I meant hip-hop. But I don't really know the difference.
 
Spun Silver said:
BTW, why the no-lyrics rule in the first place?
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This has been discussed and I will look for the thread for you because I know I have a hard time being succinct and don't want to give a meandering explanation that might not be understood. But I asked the same thing and it was answered by some of the best posters here.

MM
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190544&postcount=29

Good post IMO from JonnyCoop, keeping with bringing up with the Siouxsee and the Banshees idea which I LOVE.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190994&postcount=56

Anyway, maybe I am not supposed to be doing what I just did, but there are a couple of takes from that thread a while back.

My attempt at explaining, don't want to create bias in the judges via language or lyrics. The rule as I get the impression - is meant to "try" to keep things fair regarding music. But with the world being more easily in contact with different styles / genre of music this may hopefully be a bygone.

Spun Silver said:
I'd also like to see more women skating in pants. While I'm open to hip-hop, I'm NOT open to these young girls being pressured to expose and sexualize themselves still further. At least when they do it now in their "Barbie" costumes, there is a thin veneer of gentility to prohibit porno-style moves and to protect them from outright leers.
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Did I mention I think I love you Spun Silver:laugh: :agree:

And shorts, why no shorts?

Of course the biggest problem are the viewers who will see anything they want regardless :frown: And "pants" are great because they work both ways. On a younger skater they look "reserved" and as a "young lady" might be expected to look, yet on the women skaters, YOWZA! Nothing is more appealing then a WOMAN in pants or a unitard while skating IMO. Nothing.

Watching some of Nancy's special that was on yesterday they had clips of Michelle in her one piece charcoal practice unitard, wow wow wow wow!:love: :love: :love: "Exscuse me Michelle, but you don't have to look that ultra fine." OMG. *swoon* But in comparison Kimmie just looked like a girl out there practicing skating. I guess it is in the mind of the viewer. Nothing much can be done about interpretation. My friends went "gagga" at country on ice when they wore shorts in the finale - but not much other than "hunh?" to CC wearing her tights with no "under skirt garment", so I don't think skirt or unitard is the real issue, perves and dirty old men will think what they want:banging:
 
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Sorry, BOT. I think there are Bratz and Barbie in FS and any other sport - Gretchen "something I can't remember her last name snowboarder," seems really sweet. And Jamie did a spread for the same magazine....? FS has a few for sure, but you do have to look a little more closely at them to see it. RD once said something to this effect - about the exterior personal seeming so nice, but in reality they are out to win and will show the other side if necessary. I know I didn't say it as exactly as RedDog did (not verbatim), but that was my take on it, and agree.
 
I think there is a difference between the hip hip dance style and gangsta rap music. Hip hop can be done to a wide variety of music -- anything with a beat, really.
 
Mathman said:
I think there is a difference between the hip hip dance style and gangsta rap music. Hip hop can be done to a wide variety of music -- anything with a beat, really.
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I'll agree with the first part. As to the second, not so much, especially for OD purposes. I do believe the Dance rules still more or less state that the music one uses has to be within the parameters of the selected theme (tho Dance rules change every season so who knows now??), so you couldn't use just "anything with a beat". By that token, you could conceivably choreograph a decent foxtrot to "Shake Your Groove Thing" [:rofl: ], too, but you'd probably get totally dinged by the judges.

As Italian Dance judge Cia Bordogna once said, defending low marks she had given due to what she considered "inappropriate tempo": "Well, I could put a record of the Italian national anthem on the record player and find a way to dance to it, yet that doesn't mean it would be appropriate music."
 
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