Boot/Blade advice

[losherm]

Hi all. I’m an adult skater (28) I skate maybe 5 hours a week for myself and coach (on hockey skates) another 15-20hrs. (Up to lutz freestyle, gold moves) 5’3” 190lbs foot shape maybe African and I think high arches. Very wide but narrow heel. It’s a long story but just looking for advice…


Boots: I’ve been dealing with boot problems for a year now. My Jackson premiers lining wore away so I sent them to be repaired and the repair was the wrong material so the size completely changed. I got supremes slightly bigger size after that per tech recommendation and because I wanted more support- tried for many months to make them work but I could only skate 3-5min before my arch pain was too unbearable. Pressure pain. I’ve now been in Risport RF3 Pro for two months. Grafs were painful, tech said Edeas would not fit my foot shape. I still have bad arch pain (in super feet yellow too) but I last 8-15min now. No longer pressure pain but muscle pain. I am also a dancer so I do not have weak feet. Wondering if someone else experiences this kind of pain too and can tell me if it will eventually get better. I can’t afford to try any other skates anymore. Especially because I have to get new blades.


Blades: I skated on CorAces on my Jacksons they were very used since I had them for 10+ years. I planned to get new blades once my boots were fixed because I always struggled with spinning and Coach says technique is fine. Getting the RF3s I had to go down a blade size and my friend graciously gave me an old but usable pair of Phantoms. Been on those two months and spinning is a struggle due to low rocker. And jumping was a big adjustment due to toepick size. I really like the taper heel tho. But I have to get new blades and now idk what ones to get. Do I go back to Aces? Do I get new Phantoms? Should I get MK pros that are a little below a Phantom if those are too much for my level? Something else? Coach since I have always been on very used blades at this point just having a prominent rocker may give me spins back. I really am aiming to get all of my adult gold tests done and I don’t want to get the wrong blade and have yet another problem to deal with. I just want to skate long hours without pain like I used to. Thanks for reading all of this and allowing me to share my troubles even if there is no solution.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

It sounds like you've been having pain in every boot you've tried since you replaced the Premieres - which to me suggests it could be an injury or something, rather than a problem with the boots. I'd suggest talking to your doctor about it and seeing what they think you might need to do (if anything) to follow up on it. If it turns out that it actually is an injury (or a condition like plantar fasciitis, etc), then there isn't a pair of boots in the world that won't hurt until you address the problem!

Regarding the blades - you can't really judge how well a particular blade suits you if you've only had a used pair. Even if your friend only ever brought those Phantoms to the same excellent sharpener the whole time they owned them, the original rocker profile can't be preserved indefinitely. At your skating level (single lutz / adult gold moves), I think if you had a strong preference or affinity for a specific advanced blade like the Phantom, the Gold Seal, etc., it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to use it - and your coach is right that you might not have any trouble at all with spins on a brand-new pair of Phantoms - but you also aren't so advanced that you wouldn't do just fine with the CoroAce or MK Pro as well. If you were comfortable with the Aces you were on for 10 years, my thought would be that it makes the most sense to just stick with them. Used blades aren't doing you any favors, and a new pair of Aces is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $400USD cheaper than a new pair of Phantoms. Keep in mind that, depending on what's going on with your feet, you might end up needing something like custom orthotics, etc. - so I think there's wisdom in saving that $400 for something other than blades.

 

[losherm]

Thank you for your response! I think it’s the fact that I’ve never had arch pain before until I got those supremes that throws me off. Doctor definitely seems like the next step.

For the blades- that all makes sense thank you. It’s hard to gauge what would work without having the ability to try everything new. My brain was telling me that it would be cheaper in the long run to get Phantoms than to get a CoroAce then need to upgrade that later. But if I need orthotics.. yea
Are you familiar with the differences between CoroAce and MK Pro? It seems like the tail is smaller on the Ace which sounds nice because I like the taper on the Phantoms. But I’m confused on the spin rocker location on the two blades. Is the MK pro more forward than the Ace?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi all. I’m an adult skater (28) I skate maybe 5 hours a week for myself and coach (on hockey skates) another 15-20hrs. (Up to lutz freestyle, gold moves) 5’3” 190lbs foot shape maybe African and I think high arches. Very wide but narrow heel. It’s a long story but just looking for advice…


Boots: I’ve been dealing with boot problems for a year now. My Jackson premiers lining wore away so I sent them to be repaired and the repair was the wrong material so the size completely changed. I got supremes slightly bigger size after that per tech recommendation and because I wanted more support- tried for many months to make them work but I could only skate 3-5min before my arch pain was too unbearable. Pressure pain. I’ve now been in Risport RF3 Pro for two months. Grafs were painful, tech said Edeas would not fit my foot shape. I still have bad arch pain (in super feet yellow too) but I last 8-15min now. No longer pressure pain but muscle pain. I am also a dancer so I do not have weak feet. Wondering if someone else experiences this kind of pain too and can tell me if it will eventually get better. I can’t afford to try any other skates anymore. Especially because I have to get new blades.


Blades: I skated on CorAces on my Jacksons they were very used since I had them for 10+ years. I planned to get new blades once my boots were fixed because I always struggled with spinning and Coach says technique is fine. Getting the RF3s I had to go down a blade size and my friend graciously gave me an old but usable pair of Phantoms. Been on those two months and spinning is a struggle due to low rocker. And jumping was a big adjustment due to toepick size. I really like the taper heel tho. But I have to get new blades and now idk what ones to get. Do I go back to Aces? Do I get new Phantoms? Should I get MK pros that are a little below a Phantom if those are too much for my level? Something else? Coach since I have always been on very used blades at this point just having a prominent rocker may give me spins back. I really am aiming to get all of my adult gold tests done and I don’t want to get the wrong blade and have yet another problem to deal with. I just want to skate long hours without pain like I used to. Thanks for reading all of this and allowing me to share my troubles even if there is no solution.

Hi. This definitely sounds like an injury or medical related issue with your feet/ankles. You definitely need to see a podiatrist or orthopedist.

As far as your feet, you need to see a professional fitter for figure skates. I'd suggest RF line of Risport boots (may help arch issue) but you're going to need a stiffer boot with your weight and there's nothing with Risport in the range you need.. You could also try Graf, but again, you are going to have to look at something like Galaxy. You could try Jackson Synergy Ignite, or Supreme 5300. The boots you are going to need being stiffer are going to be painful. It's not fun breaking in boots especially at the stiffness you need. Edea, Riedell, Aura will not work for your foot shape. If nothing works, you may have to suck it up and get custom boots.

As far as blades, I think your main problem is you have a history of using old blades or used blades so the rockers etc were probably already worn down by the time you got to use them, and depending on how they were getting sharpened, that's another factor that could be affecting you. I don't think you can go wrong with a standard traditional style Coronation Ace.

I wish you luck.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

Are you familiar with the differences between CoroAce and MK Pro? It seems like the tail is smaller on the Ace which sounds nice because I like the taper on the Phantoms. But I’m confused on the spin rocker location on the two blades. Is the MK pro more forward than the Ace?

That's the million-dollar question, right there!

So when I was getting new blades recently, I did quite a bit of research trying to answer this very question. I think it makes sense to start with the things we know for sure: first, the Pro has a slightly bigger top pick than the Ace (but not to a degree where it makes a huge difference), and second, the Ace does have a shorter tail than the Pro.

Regarding the spin rockers - there's a lot of contradictory information on the Internet about this. Wilson/MK have never actually revealed the spin rocker radii measurements for any of their blades. Wilson recently updated their website to include a "Blade Comparison Chart" at the bottom of the individual pages for each blade that they make, which includes a description of the spin rocker of each blade ("Standard" for the Coronation Dance, "Subtle" for the Ace and the P99, and "Aggressive" for the Gold Seal), but again without revealing exact measurements. MK's website has a similar chart on their product pages, but it does not include any information about the spin rockers.

The blade manufacturer Paramount advertises that their blades match the profiles of the most popular blades from Wilson/MK. They say that they carefully measured the profiles of the Wilson and MK blades in order to design theirs, and published the measurements they got in their ad copy. According to Paramount, the MK Pro and JW Gold Seal both have a single 12" radius spin rocker, the Coronation Ace and the Pattern 99 both have a compound radius that starts at 27" and increases to 12" closer to the pick, and the Phantom has a 17" radius (the smaller the radius, the curvier/more aggressive the rocker feels). A lot of online stores ended up copying and pasting these numbers in their own sales listings for the Wilson/MK blades as well - which contributed to the popular perception that the Ace is an "intermediate" version of the Pattern 99, and the Pro is an "intermediate" version of the Gold Seal.

I've never skated on Coronation Aces myself, but I definitely think that the rocker on the Pro is not as aggressive as Paramount says it is. I skated on MK Pros for about 5 years, and then, out of interest in trying something different, I switched to the Paramount CP, which is their MK Professional "clone." According to their ads, it has a 12" spin rocker, and even though they don't advertise this on their site, they told my skate tech in an email that the CP has a 7' main rocker (whereas their higher-level Gold Seal "clone" has the same spin rocker with an 8' main rocker). The spin rocker on my Paramount CPs is much more aggressive than the rocker on my MK Pros, even when they were brand-new.

What does this mean, practically? Well, in general, a more aggressive, rounded spin rocker can make for faster, smoother spins since less of the blade is in contact with the ice, reducing friction (this is why the JW Gold Seal and the MK Gold Star, both of which have pretty aggressive spin rockers, are marketed as "spinner's blades"). The conventional wisdom has always been that the Pro is also more of a "spinner's blade" than the Ace, due to having a more aggressive rocker - but I think the difference between them is likely not quite as significant as it would appear from the Paramount measurements. I actually kind of wonder if the Pro is more similar to the Phantom in terms of its spin rocker!

Personal preference is also a very important thing to keep in mind here - people will generally skate their best on the blades that they're the most accustomed to (after all, at the elite level, skaters jump quads on Gold Seals, and execute beautiful spins on Pattern 99s - it's not impossible!). You're already familiar with how the Ace feels, and personally I just don't think the difference between the Ace and the Pro is so significant that a skater would see a noticeable improvement in their spins if they switched, so the Ace makes sense for you as a first choice. However, a lot of skate shops are still having trouble with supply chains, keeping blades in stock, etc. - so I also think that if you weren't able to get a new pair of Aces for some reason, the Pros would be an OK substitute if they were readily available!

 

[Diana Delafield]

The conventional wisdom has always been that the Pro is also more of a "spinner's blade" than the Ace, due to having a more aggressive rocker - but I think the difference between them is likely not quite as significant as it would appear from the Paramount measurements. I actually kind of wonder if the Pro is more similar to the Phantom in terms of its spin rocker!

When I finally switched from Pros to Phantoms, it took next to no time to adjust in spins, except for the entrance to flying camels where I kept spearing the ice with that pick and the spin went nowhere until I learned how to stay off the point of it. My partner asked, while helping me up yet again, if I was adding javelin-throwing to my list of sports? Otherwise, everything felt familiar again quite quickly.

Personal preference is also a very important thing to keep in mind here - people will generally skate their best on the blades that they're the most accustomed to (after all, at the elite level, skaters jump quads on Gold Seals, and execute beautiful spins on Pattern 99s - it's not impossible!).

My partner and I were both still in MK Pros in senior competition (wasn't as many choices in blades then, and we'd grown up on the Pros) and we were jumping triples and doing all our spins on them.

 

[IceM]

Hi all. I’m an adult skater (28) I skate maybe 5 hours a week for myself and coach (on hockey skates) another 15-20hrs. (Up to lutz freestyle, gold moves) 5’3” 190lbs foot shape maybe African and I think high arches. Very wide but narrow heel. It’s a long story but just looking for advice…


Boots: I’ve been dealing with boot problems for a year now. My Jackson premiers lining wore away so I sent them to be repaired and the repair was the wrong material so the size completely changed. I got supremes slightly bigger size after that per tech recommendation and because I wanted more support- tried for many months to make them work but I could only skate 3-5min before my arch pain was too unbearable. Pressure pain. I’ve now been in Risport RF3 Pro for two months. Grafs were painful, tech said Edeas would not fit my foot shape. I still have bad arch pain (in super feet yellow too) but I last 8-15min now. No longer pressure pain but muscle pain. I am also a dancer so I do not have weak feet. Wondering if someone else experiences this kind of pain too and can tell me if it will eventually get better. I can’t afford to try any other skates anymore. Especially because I have to get new blades.


Blades: I skated on CorAces on my Jacksons they were very used since I had them for 10+ years. I planned to get new blades once my boots were fixed because I always struggled with spinning and Coach says technique is fine. Getting the RF3s I had to go down a blade size and my friend graciously gave me an old but usable pair of Phantoms. Been on those two months and spinning is a struggle due to low rocker. And jumping was a big adjustment due to toepick size. I really like the taper heel tho. But I have to get new blades and now idk what ones to get. Do I go back to Aces? Do I get new Phantoms? Should I get MK pros that are a little below a Phantom if those are too much for my level? Something else? Coach since I have always been on very used blades at this point just having a prominent rocker may give me spins back. I really am aiming to get all of my adult gold tests done and I don’t want to get the wrong blade and have yet another problem to deal with. I just want to skate long hours without pain like I used to. Thanks for reading all of this and allowing me to share my troubles even if there is no solution.

I can offer you some help from my own experience, as it looks like we have similar feet, and I've had exactly the same kind of problems with my boots before. I have an African foot shape, very wide forefoot, narrow heel, high arches, and I pronate slightly.

Checking with a doctor or orthopedist to rule out injury-related issues isn't a bad idea, as others have already pointed out. However, I'd guess that it's probably not injury-related. If you have very wide forefeet like I do, I've found that arch pain often stems from the lack of width in the forefoot area of the boot. When your forefoot is restricted, the whole balance of how the foot works gets messed up, and the pain shifts to the arches.

My guess is that your old boots had molded to your feet enough for the pain not to appear the way it does with new boots, and your feet might have changed over the years. Using insoles like Superfeet can actually make things worse, as they're quite thick, meaning your foot has even less space and gets even more crushed. On top of that, they have heel lift, which makes the issue worse (imagine wrapping your forefoot in duct tape and walking on high heels, it's not going to be a pleasant experience). And it has to be quite bad for the pain to be so immediate. And you don't feel the pain in the forefoot because it has plenty of give (you can press it with your hand and see for yourself), but when you walk or skate with that pressure, you feel the pain in your arches. People then often assume they need arch support, which can help a little, but it doesn't actually address the root cause and can even contribute to the problem.

So, what you can do is ditch the Superfeet for now, check there are no rivets or nails poking through from the sole (you should be fine with socks on), and put your feet in the boots without any insoles at all. Lace up and stand or walk around a bit. With that extra space, do you feel more comfortable? If you do, that's because your forefoot now has that bit of extra room it needs.

The next step would be to put back the stock insoles or use the thinnest insoles possible, and have the forefoot area punched out from both sides or widened with a shoe stretcher (most shops can do this). Heat molding usually won't be enough unless your boots are made of synthetic materials that reshape easily with heat. That should give you pain-free skating. You’ll just need to focus on getting boots with narrow heel pockets for proper heel lock. You will probably fit Risport and Edea just fine, so long as the forefoot is widened properly (I do). Risports are better, though, as they have slightly wider soles (and last longer, and are overall better quality imho).

As for the blades, if you've been using second-hand ones, it's really a bit of guesswork how new blades with proper rocker will feel. If you like the taper, then go with new Phantom, Gold Seal, or Gold Star blades. My biased recommendation for getting your spins back would be the Gold Seal, but you probably can't go wrong with a new set of Aces or MK Pros either, as others have said.

I'm confident you can skate pain-free again. Take it from someone who's had plenty of painful skating.

Best of luck!

 

[losherm]

Hi thanks all for all the experience and advice! I’ve been very defeated over all of this as I approach the one year mark of not being able to figure skate due to these issues.

I’m getting new blades in a few weeks. Even though I like the phantoms I’m leaning towards the MK pros. I’m more familiar with the aces technically but I have a feeling that I might like the different spin rocker and higher heel for now at least. I feel more confident that it’s not really a bad decision either way. So whichever is in stock I’m getting it

As for my arches, I went to a podiatrist and no injury thankfully. He informed me that I have some ugly heel spurs and a very inflamed case of but common plantar fasciitis. I’m now in a waiting game on if I can get/afford custom orthotics now. Skating with no inserts did not help. I skate maybe an hour with breaks and it takes a few days before my arch pain stops. Trying to be hopeful that the orthotics will help. We have a very reliable guy who makes them where I live it’s just a matter of when. Again thank you all for the help. I appreciate it so much

 

[Query]

Let's hope the orthotics guy does a good job.

If "inflamed" includes much swelling, it is possible that after you have been using the orthotics for a while, your feet will become a little smaller, and you may need to go back for another pair, if you notice any more problems.

Taking out my insoles helped me for a bit, but I also needed to replace them with something that gave me the exact sort of support that my feet needed. Which either means figuring out how to shape your own insoles, by trial and error, or going to a competent professional.

Orthotic made by such a professional are expensive, but if you can't find a good solution on your own, it's a lot better, and maybe cheaper in the long run, to have it done right than to have long term health problems - and to keep ordering new skate boots that don't really solve the problem. And you wouldn't want those heel spurs to get worse than they already are. AFAIK, bone spurs don't ever go away - but they can get worse. And, at least in my case (with forefoot bone spurs), they reduce your range of motion, so your feet become even more sensitive to the exact shape of your footware, and you have to be careful not to make the problem worse. They might also interfere with your other activities. So in your place, since you have already tried to do things yourself, I would think it worth the cost. Especially if skating is important to your happiness.

If the orthotist does a good job, maybe he can make you orthotics that will make you more comfortable in your regular shoes too, and avoid some of the other problems that heel spurs might be causing. In my specific case, which I admit isn't entirely the same as yours (apparently, the cartilage had worn away), the podiatrist wasn't all that much direct help herself, but she diagnosed the problem and advised me to get orthopedic shoes with very stiff soles, and inserts (basically, orthotics), to reduce the motion that was presumably causing the problem. The orthotist ordered appropriate shoes and inserts, and they helped a lot. I have no idea whether that is appropriate to you - but a really good orthotist can do wonders.

Be sure to take the x-rays and diagnosis from your podiatrist to your orthotist.

Good luck!