Coaches' proposals 10-15: Jumps

[Tinymavy15]

I think that the lutz is a much harder jump than the flip.... but everybody is different. The timing of the lutz has to be just right. As for 0 points if you fall.... that seem ridiculous.

 

[Mafke]

I think that the lutz is a much harder jump than the flip.... but everybody is different. The timing of the lutz has to be just right. As for 0 points if you fall.... that seem ridiculous.

I think most skaters claim that the timing of the flip is harder, what makes a lutz hard is hoooolllllddding that outside edge (very hard but less likely to go haywire in the stress of competition than the tricky flip)

 

[hockeyfan228]

I think the flip might be considered harder, at least for the women, is because of where it appears in the program. Often the Lutz combination is among the first elements. The flip has traditionally been around the halfway point or just after, as lactic acid is building in the muscles and hasn't a "slow section" to recover. The exception is when the skater has a 3F/3, but then that is among the first few jumps, when the skater is fresh. By the time a second 3Lz is performed at the end of the program, either the skater has recovered or not.

 

[ChrisH]

One usually expects the "learning curve" to flatten out at the upper end.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking of. Flattening out at the upper end.

With the other (spins) point changes the coaches propose, maybe a growth rate of 3, 2.6, and 2.2 would be okay to satisfy those who would like quads to be more important. But quads 3 (rather than 2.2) times as valuable as triples is way too much.

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Of course I like their proposal for under-rotated jumps. Severely under-rotated jumps can get only 25% of the base value, so it's not like they're ignoring cheated jumps. The advantage is slightly under-rotated jumps can get 75% of the base value, which is about right.

One can do downgrades instead, but it shouldn't be both.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In the meantime, one can not skim along the ice to do a Flip as one can to do before a salchow.

The safest edge in skating is the Flat. That's why beginners have to learn edging.

The ideal way to execute a Flip (or a lutz) is to put one skate on the flat and when ready, place your toe rake foot well into a back inside (or a bo), When the skating foot moves to the position of the toe pick - JUMP.

However,if a skater is nervous about the jump he/she will jump from a flat or wrong edge (lip) because a strong back inside edge is just plain tough.

Oh very important. Keep both knees bent for take off.
Joe

 

[rain]

This one seems like abandoning the fortress. Should we really "dumb down" the sport just because some skaters can't do it right?

I could not agree more. If they were really the same jump and it made no difference, then every skater who could do one would be able to properly do the other. What's next, abandon all separation of jumps, because hey, they all take of backwards (except the axel).

This just seems like an excuse for poor coaching. Change the rules because you never bothered to teach your skaters proper technique.

I'm of two minds about the falls. This seems almost a throwback to how the LP was judged under the previous system, where falls were simply given no credit — no mandatory deductions, but no credit (though a fall could potentially impact the artistic score). The idea behind giving some points, I gather, was to encourage skaters to try the difficult tricks. But I don't disagree that some of the programs we're seeing winning, while littered with falls sometimes, maybe indicates some adjustment is needed.

Haven't gotten through all the recs, but these two jumped out.

 

[Penny]

^^^
About the Ladies. I believe they learn figure skating faster than the men. So what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

what happens later on is that the men specialize in jumping whereas the ladies take more interest in pretending to be ballerinas.

Still later on, both develop individual styles (hopefully)

I don't see any reason that a female skater can not be equal to a male skater in jumping. The ladies could begin practicing quads at the same time the men do.

Joe

Am I hearing you correctly? Women don't do quads because they are so busy working on their artistry? And it has nothing to do with the fact that men are more muscular and hence stronger.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Am I hearing you correctly? Women don't do quads because they are so busy working on their artistry? And it has nothing to do with the fact that men are more muscular and hence stronger.

It's an opinion and nothing to do with masculinity. I think ladies could do a quad if they work on it. I kind of think it is easier than a 3A, but never having executed them personally, I am not sure of that. I go with Button on the dangerous forward outside edge takeoff..

Joe

 

[silver.blades]

Am I hearing you correctly? Women don't do quads because they are so busy working on their artistry? And it has nothing to do with the fact that men are more muscular and hence stronger.

The main reason women tend to do fewer rotations than men is because they have curves. When a woman jumps they have to rotate through the hips becasue if they become misaligned with the shoulders, they cannot catch up and fewer rotations occur. A guy can muscle through a jump and make it, still not good technique and most of the best jumpers don't muscle jumps regularly, but it gives men a greater margin of error. The smaller hips of men are also more areodinamic allowing for quicker rotation to get in the 3 1/2 or 4 for a quad or 3A. Not to say a woman cannot do 3A and quads but it makes it much more difficult. Strength dosn't have alot to do with it, although it dosn't hurt.

 

[studek]

A fall should be awarded no points, but I think that a two-footed landing deserves some credit, if only to count towards the Zayak rule.

I agree - it bothers me when a skater who have several falls (although a technically "better" program) beats someone who has a completely clean program, even if it is technically a few points "worse." I definitely think a two-footed landing should get some credit, seeing as the did manage to stay on their feet. I definitely think there should be a stronger penalty for those who fall, and I think it should apply to elements other than jumps too - if you fall on a spin, it looks just as sloppy as falling out of a jump.

 

[Ladskater]

How about the skater's (especially the ladies) going back to the basics and learning how to properly execute a flip and a Lutz in the first place? I think some of the skaters really need to work on their edges and basic skating technique. The rules don't need to change, the skaters need to change their bad habits!

 

[fairly4]

the jumps lutz, flip shouldn't be the same.
lutz is harder. just because of edge doesn't mean same

no deduction on edge takeoff, sure the past ogm tara, oskana, sarah, jamie & david, took of wrong, won.
it is harder to do it correctly, yet every judged force michelle to do it. she didn't win. mao can't do it.
so lets make it easy on skaters. (why make skaters mad. let public stay mad)
other countries let it slid wrong edge take off and us in skaters they wanted up there.
so let make it unaminous. no deduction for wrong edge.
prove michelle couldn't win, even though her and we judge her harsher.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

How about the skater's (especially the ladies) going back to the basics and learning how to properly execute a flip and a Lutz in the first place? I think some of the skaters really need to work on their edges and basic skating technique. The rules don't need to change, the skaters need to change their bad habits!

Impossible.There is a rush to become the Gold Medalist at the next Olympics. Basics won't get the young skater there but triple and quadruple air turns will get you that objet d'arte any which way you can jump. JMO.

Joe

 

[fairly4]

i don't remember who stated, but it seems that person only think the ladies need the go back to the basics.

we focus on the ladies more, but Everyone in Every Discipline Needs to Go Back to Basics. They All mess up.

 

[Mathman]

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, I have come to think that the coaches' proposal about doing away with the flip jump and the Lutz jump has some logic to it after all.

Look at the situation now. A top-tier skater's first four jumping passes could be 3flutz, 3flutz+3T, 3flutz, 3flutz+3Lo. Deduct -1 one for two edge calls (at least two of those had to have been off the wrong edge) -- so what? -- the skater still racked up 30 points under the CoP.

Maybe the coaches' proposal isn't the answer, but it does highlight what the problem is under the current system.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, I have come to think that the coaches' proposal about doing away with the flip jump and the Lutz jump has some logic to it after all.

I see it as bowing to the crowd of competitors to make figure skating easy.

Look at the situation now. A top-tier skater's first four jumping passes could be 3flutz, 3flutz+3T, 3flutz, 3flutz+3Lo. Deduct -1 one for two edge calls (at least two of those had to have been off the wrong edge) -- so what? -- the skater still racked up 30 points under the CoP.

One has to remember that the CoP as written then, went into effect with some corrections while the competitions were ongoing. No one to my knowledege ever objected to or acquiesed to the original values placed in the GoEs, the Levels and most of all, the Base Values. Should they now?

Joe