Difference between stainless and carbon steel in skating?

[cds327131327]

I realized more and more top Russian and Japanese skaters are on matrix blades nowadays, and I hardly see anyone in revolutions now, considering how popular the revolutions were a few years ago.
I've been in JW for years and currently thinking of changing my blades. I'm having a hard time deciding between revolutions and matrix/eclipse titanium blades. There seems to be so much hype on the supposedly better-in-every-way stainless runners.
I know they last longer, but do they actually skate better? In terms of footwork, take-off, landing, and spins?
I've been hearing comments on stainless runners such as feeling more "crisp", better glide, better stability on landing, and that carbon steel blades are softer and flimsier.
Anyone who've switched from carbon blades to stainless blades, could you please share some thoughts regarding actual skating? I don't think less frequent sharpening is a big pro tho, how they affect skating matters more IMO. Do you think I should switch to pattern 99 revolution or Matrix elite/Eclipse infinity?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I realized more and more top Russian and Japanese skaters are on matrix blades nowadays, and I hardly see anyone in revolutions now, considering how popular the revolutions were a few years ago.
I've been in JW for years and currently thinking of changing my blades. I'm having a hard time deciding between revolutions and matrix/eclipse titanium blades. There seems to be so much hype on the supposedly better-in-every-way stainless runners.
I know they last longer, but do they actually skate better? In terms of footwork, take-off, landing, and spins?
I've been hearing comments on stainless runners such as feeling more "crisp", better glide, better stability on landing, and that carbon steel blades are softer and flimsier.
Anyone who've switched from carbon blades to stainless blades, could you please share some thoughts regarding actual skating? I don't think less frequent sharpening is a big pro tho, how they affect skating matters more IMO. Do you think I should switch to pattern 99 revolution or Matrix elite/Eclipse infinity?

HI and welcome!
First question is: What is your skating level?

Now, I will also tell you that I've worn or tested just about every blade out there (Triples (triple triples when I competed elite) and wasn't impressed with any of these new "improved" style blades. I went back to traditional P99.
Depending on the blades, they're either a pain to get properly sharpened (special jig), their rockers are flat, or they make some elements almost impossible unless you're Gumbyon Ice!

 

[cds327131327]

HI and welcome!
First question is: What is your skating level?

Now, I will also tell you that I've worn or tested just about every blade out there (Triples (triple triples when I competed elite) and wasn't impressed with any of these new "improved" style blades. I went back to traditional P99.
Depending on the blades, they're either a pain to get properly sharpened (special jig), their rockers are flat, or they make some elements almost impossible unless you're Gumbyon Ice!

Hi! Thank you for your reply. I'm currently working on double axel, competing at college competitions. I've used CA, then P99, and Gold Seals now. I heard so many good things about the Gold Seals, making spins and turns easier, etc. But I don't like the higher stanchion and the position of the spin rocker, the curvature is nice but the sweet spot is a little too far forward for my feet(maybe it's my long toes), so I have to tip my toes slightly to be able to spin on them. I'm thinking of selling my Gold Seals and getting a pair of P99 revolution, but one of my friends in matrix blades, who's doing triples, told me that stainless steel is far superior to carbon steel in every aspect, but she couldn't really explain exactly why. So I'm wondering if it's just a preference thing or is it the physical property of stainless steel actually help with acceleration or power transfer.

 

[cds327131327]

HI and welcome!
First question is: What is your skating level?

Now, I will also tell you that I've worn or tested just about every blade out there (Triples (triple triples when I competed elite) and wasn't impressed with any of these new "improved" style blades. I went back to traditional P99.
Depending on the blades, they're either a pain to get properly sharpened (special jig), their rockers are flat, or they make some elements almost impossible unless you're Gumbyon Ice!

Thanks, I think I'll just stick with P99, do you think it's worth getting revolutions, I like how they look, but people seem to hate them a lot.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks, I think I'll just stick with P99, do you think it's worth getting revolutions, I like how they look, but people seem to hate them a lot.

IMHO it's not worth it to get the rev lol!

 

[tstop4me]

OP: If you are comparing Ultima Matrix and Eclipse Titanium blades with their traditional Wilson P99 counterpart, there are several major differences, not just the steel composition of the runners:

(1) The profiles of the Matrix and Titanium are "comparable" (which means anything a PR guy wants it to mean) to that of the P99, but not identical. In particular, the Matrix and Titanium both have flatter spin rockers than that of the P99.

(2) The Matrix and Titanium both have a separate runner fastened to a chassis; whereas, the P99 has a traditional runner integrated with stanchions; and the stanchions are brazed to heel and sole plates. Besides a difference in weight, there are differences in mechanical properties.

(3) The Matrix and Titanium runners are fabricated from stainless steel (slightly different grades for the two); the P99 runner is fabricated from plain carbon steel.

----

When comparing high-grade stainless steel with high-grade plain carbon steel (there are many grades of each, so you need to compare high-end grades):

* The hardness ranges actually overlap over the range suitable for blades. The hardness depends on the steel composition and on the thermal processing. If the hardness is too high, the steel gets too brittle, and the edges are prone to chipping.

* A major advantage of stainless steel over plain carbon steel is that stainless steel is highly resistant to rust, even if it is stored in damp environments.

* Another major advantage of stainless steel over plain carbon steel is that it is tougher, leading to longer wear life. But you mentioned that longer times between sharpenings is not a major concern of yours.

* Stainless steel, however, is more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel. The higher toughness wears down the sharpening wheel more and also leads to more persistent burrs. Stainless steel also has a lower thermal conductivity, meaning it's easier to overheat during sharpening. So, to realize the advantages of stainless steel blades, you need a sharpener who is proficient at sharpening stainless steel blades.

Conclusion: Differences in performance between Matrix, Titanium, and P99 cannot be ascribed solely to differences between stainless steel and plain carbon steel. Too many other variables at play.

ETA: If you really want to isolate the effects of steel composition, Paramount supplies blades with three different grades of steel for the runners: 1085 plain carbon steel, 420HC stainless steel, and 440C stainless steel. Except for some minor differences, they are otherwise identical.

 

[acid_sauce]

Hey!!!
Just wanted to have my input this as well @tstop4me has explained it really well in regards to the difference between the metal alloys.

I recently switched from MK Revolution Phantoms to Matrix RXS Supremes. I can’t exactly do a proper comparison as they aren’t really marketed to be the same. However, when switching I was 100% aware they spin rocker was going to be flatter than what Matrix is compared to. They were pretty similar to the spin rocker on the phantoms. Spins felt pretty much the same. While footwork took 1 or 2 skates to get used to, but after that they felt great to me. Edges growl more, blades are lighter. The stability and crisp edge is more to the profile and the sharpen.

 

[LinaRise]

Hey!!!
Just wanted to have my input this as well @tstop4me has explained it really well in regards to the difference between the metal alloys.

I recently switched from MK Revolution Phantoms to Matrix RXS Supremes. I can’t exactly do a proper comparison as they aren’t really marketed to be the same. However, when switching I was 100% aware they spin rocker was going to be flatter than what Matrix is compared to. They were pretty similar to the spin rocker on the phantoms. Spins felt pretty much the same. While footwork took 1 or 2 skates to get used to, but after that they felt great to me. Edges growl more, blades are lighter. The stability and crisp edge is more to the profile and the sharpen.

Hello, could you please tell your opinion about matrix rxs version? I purchased them online and didn't know that will gett rxs version ( It seemed fine while skating, but I am afraid of long term usage. Because of chassis and screws being replaceable, will they loose in time?

 

[loveohio]

My skater's head coach will not allow their skaters to wear the stainless blades, because they are apparently quite a bit more noisy than traditional blades. This extra noise has led to several students be failed on tests, where the judges told the coach the extra noise they heard meant the skater wasn't doing an element 'properly' (even if they were - the judges are trained to associate blade noise with improper skating for certain things). If you are through testing this shouldn't matter to you. But if you (or your skater, for others reading this) are still testing it should be something to consider.

 

[tstop4me]

My skater's head coach will not allow their skaters to wear the stainless blades, because they are apparently quite a bit more noisy than traditional blades. This extra noise has led to several students be failed on tests, where the judges told the coach the extra noise they heard meant the skater wasn't doing an element 'properly' (even if they were - the judges are trained to associate blade noise with improper skating for certain things). If you are through testing this shouldn't matter to you. But if you (or your skater, for others reading this) are still testing it should be something to consider.

I too have had skate techs warn me about some blades being extra noisy and potential problems with some judges during tests. But the noise does not arise from stainless steel per se. Here is a portion from a previous post:

You will often hear that stainless steel blades are noisier than plain carbon steel blades. That is not true; the louder noise in some blades is due to the construction, not the material. For example, I have skated on both the Wilson Coronation Ace and the Riedell Eclipse Aurora. The Wilson Coronation Ace is fabricated from plain carbon steel; the Eclipse Aurora is fabricated from stainless steel. They both share the same traditional construction (runner with stanchions brazed to heel and sole mounting plates). The Aurora is as quiet as the Coronation Ace. Meanwhile, a friend of mine (advance freestylist and coach) has worn Paramounts with both plain carbon steel and stainless steel runners. They both share the same two-part Paramount construction (steel runner attached to an aluminum-alloy chassis). They are both equally noisy (and both noticeably noisier than a traditional blade). I currently skate on the Paramount version of the Gold Seal with a 440 runner; it is noticeably noisier than the Coronation Ace and Aurora. Skaters who skate with Jackson Ultima Matrix blades (two-part construction with stainless steel runner screwed onto an aluminum-alloy chassis) also notice more noise compared to a traditional blade.