How to spot the improvement of skaters’ skating skills | Page 4 | Golden Skate

How to spot the improvement of skaters’ skating skills

Have to say it though ... there's a difference between skating skills improving, and a skater's skating skills MARKS increasing over time (which is often more about them skating cleanly rather than significant intra-season improvements.

Alina Zagitova's SS for her 2017 cup of China FS was 8.39, with no judge giving her 9's or higher. (https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpchn2017/gpchn2017_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf). By the Olympics, her SS was 9.32 with every judge giving her 9's or higher. From November 3 to February 23, her skating skills did not improve from a grade of 83.9% to 93.2%. https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

Lipnitskaia was 7.61 at Skate Canada (https://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2013/gpcan2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf), and was 8.64 in the team event at the Olympics (https://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_TeamLadies_FS_F_Scores.pdf) - and 8.68 in the individual FS where she fell ( https://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf - and just 8.75 for Mao Asada).
Yes, I remember that era. I did not follow figure skating very closely then. But, based on general info from our Olympic judge, in that period of IJS development the policy was that PCS should be tied to TES. So, the highest TES should automatically receive the highest PCS and if the TES was hurt, like, if skaters fell a lot, then their PCS should be lowered as well. According to this, Surya of 1991 would receive at least 8+ PCS, which would be of course... very fun. So they tweaked the rules once again and now the PCS is capped in case of falls but not very much and the highest TES does not guarantee the highest PCS. Although it's usually not far behind.

But this is not the discussion that this thread was created for - this thread was created to talk about skill difference that can be seen with an eye, not to analyze specific judges' marks or discuss how PCS should e awarded.

I agree. But to the prior points, I do find that when a skater is not delivering the elements, or doesn't feel entirely comfortable out there, they start pushing off their toe, or their edges flatten. They skate with less "power/speed". They might miss exit and entrance transitions and leave out choreo that may reduce the "variety of edges/steps/turns/movements/directions" than they would otherwise exhibit if they were performing cleanly. They may sacrifice clarity of edge because they're just not into the performance/phone it in.
Can you bring up some video evidence and put a finger on if? ;)

Like I said, this thread is not a discussion about how the PCS should be judged. However, in terms of skating skills that can be seen by an eye, this is a very interesting question: how much skating skills - or rather, the display of skating skills if we consider that a skill is something that a skater generally possesses - actually suffer when a skater has a bad day?
 
she, indeed will have plenty of time to improve her skating skills by 2912 :)
Jokes aside, if you have issues like Surya had in 1991, that's about how long it takes to solve them.

When I did my research, I also looked up her performance in 2001. Her knee bend has improved there but not by much; there is still very minimal ankle bend, lots of straight legs and, of course, no loop turns or cantilevers.
But in 2012 - voilà!
 
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Jokes aside, if you have issues like Surya had in 1991, that's about how long it takes to solve them.

When I did my research, I also looked up her performance in 2001. Her knee bend has improved there but not by much; there is still very minimal ankle bend, lots of straight legs and, of course, no loop turns or cantilevers.
But in 2012 - voilà!
I think it depends on the focus of the skater. Surya could have improved her skating skills much earlier but she was jumps obsessed. Later in life, in 2912, she probably is enjoying skating a lot more than jumping.
Surya didn't have the greatest coaching arrangement to enlighten her about why her marks were always so much lower than other skaters, for instance, the exquisite Yuka Sato.
 
I think it depends on the focus of the skater. Surya could have improved her skating skills much earlier but she was jumps obsessed. Later in life, in 2912, she probably is enjoying skating a lot more than jumping.
Surya didn't have the greatest coaching arrangement to enlighten her about why her marks were always so much lower than other skaters, for instance, the exquisite Yuka Sato.
I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French? ;)
 
I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French? ;)
Well, that's your hypothesis. I am pretty convinced that it's a question of focus rather than anatomy in this case. Surya was a gymnast and was powerful yet had a very flexible back. She performed a bunch of variations on Bielmann spins so I doubt her lack of skating skills in the 90s were due to her limited physical capacities. She was athletic. She was training quads and wanted to be the first woman to land them. I am pretty sure that her more recently acquired skating skills are due to a shift of focus, no longer chasing big jumps. As an athletic person with great physical attributes, I have a hard time believing that her anatomy prevented her from having great blade skills.

BTW : Patrick Chan isn't very flexible, yet, his skating skills are the best. Why ? Focus :)
 
Well, that's your hypothesis. I am pretty convinced that it's a question of focus rather than anatomy in this case. Surya was a gymnast and was powerful yet had a very flexible back. She performed a bunch of variations on Bielmann spins so I doubt her lack of skating skills in the 90s were due to her limited physical capacities. She was athletic. She was training quads and wanted to be the first woman to land them. I am pretty sure that her more recently acquired skating skills are due to a shift of focus, no longer chasing big jumps. As an athletic person with great physical attributes, I have a hard time believing that her anatomy prevented her from having great blade skills.

BTW : Patrick Chan isn't very flexible, yet, his skating skills are the best. Why ? Focus :)
No-no-no-no, don't twist my words! Not entire anatomy - ankles! The angle of her ankle :)

Maybe Patrick Chan could not scratch his left ear with his right foot but he had his ankle bent in a perfectly narrow angle. Why? Anatomy.

So, how about this one:

What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French? ;)
Challenge accepted?
 
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No-no-no-no, don't twist my words! Not entire anatomy - ankles! The angle of her ankle :)

Maybe Patric Chan could not scratch his left ear with his right foot but he had his ankle bent in a perfectly narrow angle. Why? Anatomy.

So, how about this one:


Challenge accepted?
you can read her autobiography and watch the documentary about her ... it's all up there :).

btw... maybe I am just suspicious because composers do not reveal all their secrets... do you really think that all skaters would admit having bad skating skills because their ankles are bad ? or that they deliberately chose to not focus on skating skills because they were chasing quads ? in a judged sport ? would everyone come out clean ? I mean, at least Surya denied the rumours that were spread that she was born on Réunion Island.... I mean, if her coach and mother were fabricating myths about her to generate some public attention, are you really sure you can trust any of the sources you and I would find ?

I will use my get free out of jail card on this one :).
 
you can read her autobiography and watch the documentary about her ... it's all up there :).

btw... maybe I am just suspicious because composers do not reveal all their secrets... do you really think that all skaters would admit having bad skating skills because their ankles are bad ? or that they deliberately chose to not focus on skating skills because they were chasing quads ? in a judged sport ? would everyone come out clean ? I mean, at least Surya denied the rumours that were spread that she was born on Réunion Island.... I mean, if her coach and mother were fabricating myths about her to generate some public attention, are you really sure you can trust any of the sources you and I would find ?

I will use my get free out of jail card on this one :).
Why, people are free to keep their secrets if they prefer so. Fine for me :shrug: I'm more interested into what they want to say and what they want to be their legacy.

Although I don't deny that I can't help feeling curious about this one. In one video, she apparently has bad* ankles. In the other video 20 years later, her ankles are fine. And I know that bad ankles are hell damn hard to fix. Of course, I want her to reveal the secret how she did it! Or explain it anyhow for chrissake :)
But if she chooses not to, well. It's up to her.


*depending on physical complexion, it may be absolutely healthy and normal that ankles do not bend much further than the ninety degree angle between foot and lower leg; so it's not necessarily a sign of a bad health condition - but it is in either case bad in the aspect that it sets physical limitations for skating skill development. In case of Surya Bonaly, it was Achilles tendon problem - ETA.
 
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Why, people are free to keep their secrets if they prefer so. Fine for me :shrug: I'm more interested into what they want to say and what they want to be their legacy.

Although I don't deny that I can't help feeling curious about this one. In one video, she apparently has bad ankles. In the other video 20 years later, her ankles are fine. And I know that bad ankles are hell damn hard to fix. Of course, I want her to reveal the secret how she did it! Or explain it anyhow for chrissake :)
But if she chooses not to, well. It's up to her.
I have hyper mobility in ankles. I have been strengthening them all my life. Still hyper mobile and prone to sprain. I have developed a super power which is to look everywhere I set foot. It's quite practical to avoid dog poo too.
 
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I have hyper mobility in ankles. I have been strengthening them all my life. Still hyper mobile and prone to sprain. I have developed a super power which is to look everywhere I set foot. It's quite practice to avoid dog poo too.
I will keep my ankle information private :)

And now, I'm off to look for the said Surya Bonaly documentary. I don't know how I got this far but I'm hooked :laugh:
 
Eventually, this thread has so many tips and references and so few cases of users actually accepting the challenge that I changed the title yet again.

I hope that now it will be easier to find for users who want to learn more about Skating Skills and can serve as a worthy resource also after it goes to archive.
 
I know there are PCS caps but judges can still exceed those limits if the want to like Hanyu at the 2022 Olympics FS. It’s not like the computer caps the PCS they are allowed to give.

It happened in 6.0 too where even with falls/pops the top skaters could still receive 5.7’s on technical while a less popular skater skating clean with max tech could only hope to cap at 5.7 because they lacked the clout. Otherwise Goebel would have a silver medal from the 2022 Olympics.

I also think your PCS shouldn’t be affected by how others do which was the point (inherently) of IJS - scoring skaters absolutely…. Even though judges still score skaters relatively based on a perceived/preconceived hierarchy (especially in ice dance). Only because skaters lose base value and are “forced” to be deducted for falls do inferior/less popular skaters who go clean have a shot to win or medal.

If you fall 2 times and everybody falls 6 times everyone should be marked lower than not the cleanest gets a 10. It is absolutely ridiculous that a skater with 4 or 5 falls could still get mid-8s or higher for skating skills and it is very obviously not an accurate assessment rather than those judges trying to “save” a popular skater.
Is it a matter of lacking "clout" or of lacking skill/quality (relatively speaking -- 5.7s were still elite scores). Of course, the quality is usually what led to the clout in the first case.

Of course there were and are exceptions where judges see what they expect or want to see. But I think we need to start from the premise that judges judge what they see, according to the rules and standards they have been trained in, and focusing not only on the number of obvious errors but also on subtler technical points that don't always come across on video and don't always come across to live viewers without the technical training.

And then they don't always live up to the ideal, because they're human.

But I'd rather understand the ideal and and understand that it is not always met, rather than assuming that judges failing to judge what they see is the default condition.



Right. Which means if a great skater on a bad day earns PCS in the 8s, those scores might be the highest in the event or they might be 10th highest, depending on how the other skaters do. If the judges aren't comparing the skaters to each other, they'll award each skater the scores they think that performance deserved on that day. Regardless of what they think the other skaters deserved that day.

And then higher PCS might not translate into first place overall if the skater on the bad day had enough serious errors, penalized in base value and GOEs, to end up with lower TES that the PCS can't compensate for.

Or they might still have the highest TES if they rotated more quads than the skaters who skated cleaner (or whose errors were things like underrotations/downgrades or edge calls or inadequate spin positions or step sequence turns that don't count, meaning the performances could look good to casual viewers but end up losing more points than stepping or falling out of rotated difficult jumps.





If the skaters are less skilled (let's say, rather than calling them inferior), then they won't win when everyone skates their best. But if they do skate their best and a more skilled skater makes multiple errors, then they can win. That sounds like the way it should be.

As for "popular" -- of course, skaters can be popular with fans for all sorts of reasons that are irrelevant to scoring/results, or not have much impact.

Being "popular" with judges is often rooted in fundamental technical expertise, which may still be present throughout a performance aside from a few moments of visible errors.

Or not, if the skater is injured etc. and not living up to their own ability that day.



Yes, falls will affect the PCS and if everybody falls at least twice then no one should get 9s let alone 10 under the current rules.


It's unlikely, but if you have a very top skater who typically earns scores like 9.5 for a clean performance and then subtract 0.25 from each component for each fall, 4 or 5 falls can still end up in the 8s. However, losing 1.0 or 1.25 across all components means losing 5 or more points overall in a men's free skate.
And then there are the fall deductions, which under today's rules would total 6 points for 4 falls and 9 points for 5 falls. That's a lot of points lost outside the PCS.
And how does it help you to recognize improved skating skills?

I'm sorry but the kind Goldenskate stuff just shortened the previous version of the title which included "Skating Skills component" and hence could indirectly justify general discussion. Could you please figure out how to bring your conversation closer to the topic or... Start a new thread, maybe?
 
When I earlier posted the previous generation ISU videos that explained the Skating Skills component, I didn't realize that these videos were supported by a set of examples:

Women, average
Women, good
Women, weak

Men, weak
Men, average
Men, good

Pairs, weak
Pairs, average
Pairs, good

Dance, weak
Dance, average
Dance, good

Hope you can use it as a reference!
Sorry, I had completely lost the thread! I've just watched the Women and wow! They're severe! Of course nobody can disagree with the order but Jennifer Kirk "just" average? Judges disagreed by the way, and I still find them a bit severe... or rather, the use of the scales have changed since? Today she would be given high 7s if not 8s given her passport (and I would find it high, I'm never content). Average is normally scored between 5 and 6 in IJS? And Yuka Sato, merely "good"? Who else can have this dynamic and smooth Waltz rhythm from skates to head, so many times in the program that it seems all along? It doesn't need only musicality, it needs and shows terrific Skating Skills (Kazuki Tomono hit it in his 2022-2023 Free Skate)! So many others have tried and failed! As to Surya Bonaly, she didn't have Skating Skills at the level of other Top Figure Skaters, but calling them "weak"?
Well, to those who yell here when anyone proposes any score below 8, if not 9, for today's weaker "top" Skaters, pretending that low Components are only for Juniors if not Novices (!), there's this reference...
 
I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French? ;)
Actually she did Gymnastics, particularly Tumbling, and I don't even remember if she was mentioned among Skaters who had also another Sport? She got a Hope World Medal and a Team Senior then stopped Tumbling but the toes indeed in Gymnastics, have a particular training, and maybe it did hinder her until "her toes/feet muscles forgot" and she could mould them to "pure" Figure Skating positions?
She did say that these two Sports weren't training the same muscle.
 
Please, start a separate tread for score analysis!
Please, start a separate thread for different skater comparison!

This thread is supposed to be about tips how to recognize improved skating when comparing performances of the same skater after a lapse of time.
Please, contribute to this and take other discussions to appropriate threads!
 
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