- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
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Men from TV
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Don't know if the judging was fair. I haven't looked at the scores but Oda's absence from the program for that length of time should have been more severely penalized, imo. None the less, he has to be one of the top jumpers in competition today. The jumps are clearly just another step in the program. He is so at ease. No need to 'sell' the jumps as a great feat. He just does it and gets on with the program. I was actually sad to see him hit the boards and then what it did to him.
The Canadian boys must have the same mentor: Kurt and what a mentor to have! Both fellows will be very competitive for future fs events. It's always nice to hear music that has nothing to do with warriors.
As I said before Matt get somewhat lacklustered in front of international judges. Hopefully, by the Olys, he will have now gotten this out of his system. One thing I beginning to believe is that he does the best sitsspins (all the way down) in figure skating.
Joe
The Canadian boys must have the same mentor: Kurt and what a mentor to have! Both fellows will be very competitive for future fs events. It's always nice to hear music that has nothing to do with warriors.
As I said before Matt get somewhat lacklustered in front of international judges. Hopefully, by the Olys, he will have now gotten this out of his system. One thing I beginning to believe is that he does the best sitsspins (all the way down) in figure skating.
Joe
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Unfortunately, there are some comments of the TV skate in the review thread.
I'll reply here, Joe, especially since ITA that Oda got a great big gift from the judges. Some of us wondered how the judges could "cheat" with the new system, at least in terms of the old "I'll put France first in dance if you'll put Russia first in pairs" kinds of deals. Although I'd call this "unfair" judging rather than cheating, the outcome was still that the wrong skater won. Apparently enough judges went, "Aww, the guy got up and kept skating his program after he had a bad fall. Let's let him win just for not stopping." You can't change human nature, though I hope there are repercussions from this.
I think Oda is a great emerging talent, but rules is rules. At the '94 Olympics, nobody gave Josee Choinard any extra points for having to skate four minutes before she expected to because Tonya Harding's boot lace broke. It was cool that Mabee was a good sportsman about the outcome, but I hope his coaches and the Canadian Federation file a complaint. IMO, it shouldn't be up to the individual athletes to "raise heck" if they feel a result is unfair, although I did admire the petition that almost all the ice dancers signed at '02 Worlds when Drobias/Vanagas finished fourth. IIRC, the petition stated that the skaters felt their fourth rather than third place finish was unfair.
Anyway, I hope to see something added to the COP about significant deductions if a skater doesn't skate his program for X number of seconds. It's one thing to have a bad fall and need four or five seconds to get up and shake it off, especially if the rest of the skater's program goes well. But for me, it was after Oda had completed a three-jump combo and seemed to be back into his program, but then "skated around aimlessly for about 15 seconds" as one of the commentators put it that really bothered me.
Paul Wylie said Oda would only lose points for the spin he didn't do during that period, which was only worth about five points. What's the rest of the skating then? Chopped liver?
So I completely disagree with Oda being first; in fact I'm not sure he should have been on the podium, though I'd have to look at my tape again and compare the skate and scores of the fourth place finisher. As I said, I think Oda is terrific, but this win was just wrong IMO. However, ironically, I still felt bad for Oda because of the whole deal of being coached by his mother. While Oda was "skating aimlessly" his mother was giving him a stare-down I sure wouldn't want to be 18, on ISU competitive ice, in the middle of my program, and be on the object of. It was as if his mother's eyes were saying, "Keep skating or die."
OTOH, it's that kind of toughness skaters need if they want to be king of the mountain. I think we only rarely see a situation like this where it's obvious what a skater is going through in order to keep skating, but you've got to know there are top skaters in every competition skating in serious physical pain, with serious equipment problems, emotional stresses, ie, a beloved relative dying, and all kinds of things we never see or hear about. So Mom probably did her son a favor if he really wants to succeed. Also, if it was Oda's coach instead of his mother, I probably would have reacted, "That's part of a coach's job, to toughen up the skater." Hopefully Oda gets the hugs, when he needs them, from Dad.
Anyway, no maybe about it, Mabee won 4CC. (I know, awful, but I couldn't resist.)
Rgirl
I think Oda is a great emerging talent, but rules is rules. At the '94 Olympics, nobody gave Josee Choinard any extra points for having to skate four minutes before she expected to because Tonya Harding's boot lace broke. It was cool that Mabee was a good sportsman about the outcome, but I hope his coaches and the Canadian Federation file a complaint. IMO, it shouldn't be up to the individual athletes to "raise heck" if they feel a result is unfair, although I did admire the petition that almost all the ice dancers signed at '02 Worlds when Drobias/Vanagas finished fourth. IIRC, the petition stated that the skaters felt their fourth rather than third place finish was unfair.
Anyway, I hope to see something added to the COP about significant deductions if a skater doesn't skate his program for X number of seconds. It's one thing to have a bad fall and need four or five seconds to get up and shake it off, especially if the rest of the skater's program goes well. But for me, it was after Oda had completed a three-jump combo and seemed to be back into his program, but then "skated around aimlessly for about 15 seconds" as one of the commentators put it that really bothered me.
Paul Wylie said Oda would only lose points for the spin he didn't do during that period, which was only worth about five points. What's the rest of the skating then? Chopped liver?
So I completely disagree with Oda being first; in fact I'm not sure he should have been on the podium, though I'd have to look at my tape again and compare the skate and scores of the fourth place finisher. As I said, I think Oda is terrific, but this win was just wrong IMO. However, ironically, I still felt bad for Oda because of the whole deal of being coached by his mother. While Oda was "skating aimlessly" his mother was giving him a stare-down I sure wouldn't want to be 18, on ISU competitive ice, in the middle of my program, and be on the object of. It was as if his mother's eyes were saying, "Keep skating or die."
OTOH, it's that kind of toughness skaters need if they want to be king of the mountain. I think we only rarely see a situation like this where it's obvious what a skater is going through in order to keep skating, but you've got to know there are top skaters in every competition skating in serious physical pain, with serious equipment problems, emotional stresses, ie, a beloved relative dying, and all kinds of things we never see or hear about. So Mom probably did her son a favor if he really wants to succeed. Also, if it was Oda's coach instead of his mother, I probably would have reacted, "That's part of a coach's job, to toughen up the skater." Hopefully Oda gets the hugs, when he needs them, from Dad.
Anyway, no maybe about it, Mabee won 4CC. (I know, awful, but I couldn't resist.)
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2005
What I found interesting was that he was able to do two elements, including a HUGE three-jump combination before he had to take an even larger break from the performance. I still would have given the win to him if it had just been the first pause right after the fall, because it's expected it will take a skater a few seconds to get up after a bad fall, but I just don't understand him getting the Performance/Execution and Choreography marks he did, with a thirty-second gap in the program.
Man, I can't believe Matt hung on to third place with a skate like that
. Not the best thing to be taking to Torino, confidence-wise. The jumps are so beautiful when he tries them; every time he doubled a jump my heart sunk.
Great skate for Chris. I wish he was going to Torino instead of Sawyer.
Man, I can't believe Matt hung on to third place with a skate like that
. Not the best thing to be taking to Torino, confidence-wise. The jumps are so beautiful when he tries them; every time he doubled a jump my heart sunk. Great skate for Chris. I wish he was going to Torino instead of Sawyer.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
RGirl,
I agree with your suggestions about penalizing Oda but I wish you had left out the Russia-France deal part. That has always been a speculation, assumption, and not a proven fact, but I will talk about Oda.
I was absolutely shocked to see what he did- taking off time just to skate around the ice! I thought he was going to go to the judges and ask for permission of some sort- to fix his skates, or costumes, or whatever else. Then he started skating again and they gave him pretty generous marks, because there is no provision in the COP for this type of situation. Chris Mabee should have clearly been the winner.
As much as the 6.0 system as been maligned recently, a skater would definitely be penalized for this under that system. The COP only adds points for what a skater does. The only deduction is for a fall -that too just one point, regardless of whether the fall was truly disruptive to the program or not, and Oda's fall on 3A was. Even if the skater is falling all over the ice he/she loses just one point each time. Fall aside, there is no provision in the COP to deduct points for a skater that just skates around for 30-40 seconds, which totally ruined the presentation. That should have been a HUGE deduction. His win was totally unfair, and it exposed a weakness of the COP system. Unfortunately the rules will not be changed before the Olympics, if at all. Every time a problem occurs, hopefully the system will be improved but after 4 years the system still needs many changes.
The biggest flaw in the COP is that it does not look at a program/performance as a whole. That is something only a human brain can do but they have removed that instrument from figure skating.
Matt's performance was so disappointing! I hope he skates better in Torino but he missed an opportunity to make a positive impression on the international judges.
I watched Chris Mabee as a junior skater at a JGP around 2002. I thought he reminded me of Kurt Browning. After watching him on the 4CC tape, I am convinced that he is the next Kurt Browning. He will need to master the difficult jumps though. He should have won this competition hands down.
Vash
I agree with your suggestions about penalizing Oda but I wish you had left out the Russia-France deal part. That has always been a speculation, assumption, and not a proven fact, but I will talk about Oda.
I was absolutely shocked to see what he did- taking off time just to skate around the ice! I thought he was going to go to the judges and ask for permission of some sort- to fix his skates, or costumes, or whatever else. Then he started skating again and they gave him pretty generous marks, because there is no provision in the COP for this type of situation. Chris Mabee should have clearly been the winner.
As much as the 6.0 system as been maligned recently, a skater would definitely be penalized for this under that system. The COP only adds points for what a skater does. The only deduction is for a fall -that too just one point, regardless of whether the fall was truly disruptive to the program or not, and Oda's fall on 3A was. Even if the skater is falling all over the ice he/she loses just one point each time. Fall aside, there is no provision in the COP to deduct points for a skater that just skates around for 30-40 seconds, which totally ruined the presentation. That should have been a HUGE deduction. His win was totally unfair, and it exposed a weakness of the COP system. Unfortunately the rules will not be changed before the Olympics, if at all. Every time a problem occurs, hopefully the system will be improved but after 4 years the system still needs many changes.
The biggest flaw in the COP is that it does not look at a program/performance as a whole. That is something only a human brain can do but they have removed that instrument from figure skating.
Matt's performance was so disappointing! I hope he skates better in Torino but he missed an opportunity to make a positive impression on the international judges.
I watched Chris Mabee as a junior skater at a JGP around 2002. I thought he reminded me of Kurt Browning. After watching him on the 4CC tape, I am convinced that he is the next Kurt Browning. He will need to master the difficult jumps though. He should have won this competition hands down.
Vash
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