Question about Chinese Twists & Throws

[discodisco]

I have a question about what allows the Chinese pairs in particular to have such breathtaking twists and throws. I asked this because while watching the junior pairs at the Grand Prix final, the difference in musculature between someone like Thrasher versus for example the second or third string Chinese male skaters here. Thrasher is built like a tank, which makes the quality of the Canadians twist understandable, but so many of the Chinese Paris get such incredible height on their twists, and to a very slightly lesser degree their throws, when the male skaters appear so much more rangy, shall we safe. I ask this as a male who was the proverbial 6 ft tall 98 lb weakling, so to speak, and I could never giving that much elevation to a pillow, let alone another human!

I know it also is likely due to the fact that many of their young partners have quite narrow hips and whatnot, and have really impressive abilities to rotate so quickly. But I always remember being so impressed with the fact that the raining Olympics champions used to be able to do a quad twist when he was of much lesser stature than many of the other pairs. Anyway, I've often thought about this question, but it really was highlighted in the Junior final when you had these very impressive triple twists completed so effortlessly, and it maybe thinks there must be at least something in the Chinese School of pair skating that contributes to this, because it seems to be universal, ever since the first really amazing Shen & Zhao first blew everybody's mind way back in 1996 in Edmonton.

Same with the throws, although I think that's a little easier to understand when you watch the Chinese technique when warming up, and that while a lot of skaters from other nations warm up throws whose size fits the number of rotations - I e, single flip throw is small, double flip gets a bit bigger, and then the triple flip isn't much bigger than the double - whereas when you watch the Chinese skaters warm up there throws, the single flip has a massive delay on it and covers almost as much ice as the double flip. So it seems to me that they practice big delayed throws from the beginning, so the skaters get used to that huge feeling.

Anyway, I know some people get a bit touchy when it comes to discussing body size and shape, but that's not what I'm doing here. I am honestly interested in what ever the technique is that allows the Chinese to just dominate with such breathtaking throws- because they really are spectacular even when the male partners are nowhere near as heavily built as some of the more stereotypically muscular male pair skaters.

 

[4everchan]

Leaving the body discussion out of it because it's there for sure but I think there are two other factors.

Tradition

Fearless culture.

1) Tradition : the Chinese pairs are known for their big throws. While many pairs see the throw as an assisted jump, with a trajectory that goes higher, the Chinese pairs technique is to throw far away, very far away... Even the team doing doubles was doing that. So it's part of the technique and tradition

2) I also believe that there is for the better or worse, a fearless culture engrained in these young athletes from a super young age. The Chinese teams in the finals were younger than the Canadian teams and were doing the big stuff already. It got me thinking about this : do the Canadian teams work more on skating as a unit, as a pair, and on skating skills and individual skills at that age to protect their skaters while the Chinese are teaching them the big stuff right away so it becomes natural and something they cannot fear ?

I remember both Meagan Duhamel and KMT saying how the twist was scary and the elements they would be happy to never perform again...

Which makes me very impressed by the way at Deanna who learned that element very old and it's one of the best in the world (Max is a great twister which helps)

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I vaguely remember reading an interview with pair coach Yao Bin where he said something about watching the gears on his bicycle being repaired inspiring the throw technique..?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Twist lifts are about perfecting technique and timing, not about brute strength of the male. Both partners must be on point and in tune with each other in order to execute successfully.

Listen to Timothy LeDuc discuss these very important facts about mastering twists in the recent interview posted on GS in the Edge forum by @manleywoman.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Leaving the body discussion out of it because it's there for sure but I think there are two other factors.

Tradition

Fearless culture.

1) Tradition : the Chinese pairs are known for their big throws. While many pairs see the throw as an assisted jump, with a trajectory that goes higher, the Chinese pairs technique is to throw far away, very far away... Even the team doing doubles was doing that. So it's part of the technique and tradition

2) I also believe that there is for the better or worse, a fearless culture engrained in these young athletes from a super young age. The Chinese teams in the finals were younger than the Canadian teams and were doing the big stuff already. It got me thinking about this : do the Canadian teams work more on skating as a unit, as a pair, and on skating skills and individual skills at that age to protect their skaters while the Chinese are teaching them the big stuff right away so it becomes natural and something they cannot fear ?

I remember both Meagan Duhamel and KMT saying how the twist was scary and the elements they would be happy to never perform again...

Which makes me very impressed by the way at Deanna who learned that element very old and it's one of the best in the world (Max is a great twister which helps)

Yeah, Deanna learned pairs elements under coach Jim Peterson, with her first partner, Nate Bartholomay. Peterson is a great lifts coach. The twist is a lift element. Having learned the basics, Deanna soared with Max Deschamps. They are so physically well-matched. Deanna has said that Max's strength and ability to toss her so high on the twist was almost too much when they first partnered. His strength on the toss had to be tempered so they could find the sweet spot balance. And they did.

Deanna/ Max have one of the best triple twist lifts in the world, which is why their rare miscue when Deanna's boot got clipped just before the toss at a recent GP, was so shocking. No one could understand what had happened until Deanna explained it during a post-event interview.

Regarding the OP's query on how the Chinese coaches teach twists and throws, we would need to ask them directly for definitive answers, if in fact they would be willing to reveal their secrets. What we do know is that in the beginning, Yao Bin and his team studied all the fs pairs videos they could access. That's how they learned initially, by studying other competitors, and then developing their own methods over the years. I would guess that the rich Chinese culture of dance and especially acrobatics has also deeply influenced twist lift and throw jump technique taught by Chinese coaches.

Another example: Greg Louganis, the Olympic gold medal-winning diver from the U.S. inspired generations of Chinese athletes and coaches who have excelled in the sport of diving. Louganis was adopted as a baby by Greek-American parents (adoptive mother's background is Scotch-Irish), but his biological heritage is Samoan-Swedish. Louganis' Samoan ancestry stands out, thus diving aspirants in China identified with Louganis, similar to how Michelle Kwan inspired athletes and fans universally, but especially Asian skaters. After studying Louganis' amazing feats and technique, and incorporating with their own training methods, several generations of Chinese divers began dominating in Olympic and World diving competitions.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I know it also is likely due to the fact that many of their young partners have quite narrow hips and whatnot, and have really impressive abilities to rotate so quickly.

Lean body shape definitely helps, but many other factors are necessary, including skill, ability, training expertise, motivation, practice, partner dynamics in pairs, etc. Having a slim body build is certainly an asset and an important factor in developing quick rotations (e.g. Ilia Malinin; Nathan Chen; Nika Egadze), but learning the right, most efficient technique, among other cited factors, is what makes the major difference for every athlete, regardless of body shape.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The title of this thread was at first confusing as 'Chinese twists' could refer to pastries or to a special category of athletic feats.

Twists and throws by Chinese pairs athletes (or by Russian, or Canadian athletes) is clearer phrasing.

I also believe that there is for the better or worse, a fearless culture engrained in these young athletes from a super young age.

Possibly. It could also be patriotic motivation to excel indoctrinated in young athletes, along with, in some cases, the fear of failure or letting down coaches and country, pushing them to heights of mastery. For e.g., the young junior team, Zhang/ Huang, who recently moved to seniors, competed very strongly and cleanly at the Beijing Olympic qualifier, placing first. But at other less crucially important events, they have made mistakes and shown their youthful vulnerability.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Lean body shape definitely helps, but many other factors are necessary, including skill, ability, training expertise, motivation, practice, partner dynamics in pairs, etc. Having a slim body build is certainly an asset and an important factor in developing quick rotations (e.g. Ilia Malinin; Nathan Chen; Nika Egadze), but learning the right, most efficient technique, among other cited factors, is what makes the major difference for every athlete, regardless of body shape.

Missed this thread earlier. I had three kids in my twenties, with the first two as twins, so I haven't had narrow hips for a very long time. But I had excellent technical coaches in skating and gymnastics, and as dance teachers, and I still, at 60-ish, do double-double jump combinations, double Axels, and triple toe loops and salchows and triple throws where I have my partner's help.

OK, genetics gets in there too. A lot of athletic relatives with lean bodies and fast reflexes into late middle age.

 

[Mathman]

'Chinese twists' could refer to pastries or to a special category of athletic feats.

I know, right? I Googled "Chinese twists" and found out all about mahwa.

 

[meem]

Prior to the Chinese pairs teams being successful at competitions, does anyone remember other male skaters kicking up their free leg in the back? I don't. Now I think just about every male pairs skater is doing it.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Prior to the Chinese pairs teams being successful at competitions, does anyone remember other male skaters kicking up their free leg in the back? I don't. Now I think just about every male pairs skater is doing it.

None of my partners ever did, but they were all trained a long time ago. I used to see a few men who had that habit, but you didn't really notice until at least once they inevitably tripped and did a face plant. Then you'd hear their coach getting after them for that quirk and they'd usually try to break the habit.

As the one being thrown, I wouldn't want to feel that launch pad tipping. Probably like a diver would feel if a springboard tilted to one side on take-off.