2015 Europeans Ladies Short Program Jan 29

[Sabrina]

Liza was very good but her spins are just OK, not as good as Anna (even with her hop in the flying spin, but she didn't loose speed), and Elena. In my book Liza is after Anna. Anna's jumps were superb, amazing speed and transitions, and a very powerful program. Liza's Bolero is not as beautiful as Carolina, and the 3T3T is not in the same league with 3Lz 3T. Elena...WOW, amazing. She deserves to lead. What a beautiful kid! These Russians are amazing, but I really miss Julia...

 

[andromache]

I finally had a chance to watch all three top ladies' performances. Of the three, I think Anna is my personal favorite--she seems to have more musicality than the other two ladies, and her choreography/program/packaging is my favorite, as well. I'm not sure why Liza and Lena are scoring higher than her on PCS (or how any of them outscored Kiira, as other posters have pointed out.) Lena's program is a ton of fun to watch, she sells it, but Anna and Liza have much more secure jumps. And Liza...as I said earlier, I want to love her, but those arms drive me crazy. Going into the free, I'm rooting for Anna; unfortunately it's unlikely for her to move up unless Liza and Lena make mistakes (and I don't want to see that happen either!) Still, while Liza and Lena are the definitive 1/2 for Russia right now, it'd be great to see Anna manage to win somehow.

 

[Lipea]

SportRussia youtube channel has all the ladies performances from today fully recorded with CK: https://www.youtube.com/user/sportrussiatv

 

[Alba]

Can we move on with this "aura" thing about Yuna, Mao and Carolina? I mean I'm saying this as a lover of Mao (I would be very happy to see her come back next season) and still love the "aura" that Kwan, Kulik, Yagudin, G&G, M&D, B&S, K&P, V&M etc.etc. had, but it's pathetic to bring back their "aura" in any competition right now. New and young skaters are in, deal with it. Otherwise, move away.

 

[Sandpiper]

Liza was very good but her spins are just OK, not as good as Anna (even with her hop in the flying spin, but she didn't loose speed), and Elena. In my book Liza is after Anna. Anna's jumps were superb, amazing speed and transitions, and a very powerful program. Liza's Bolero is not as beautiful as Carolina, and the 3T3T is not in the same league with 3Lz 3T. Elena...WOW, amazing. She deserves to lead. What a beautiful kid! These Russians are amazing, but I really miss Julia...

Disagree on the spins. No doubt Elena is the best spinner, but I wouldn't put Anna above Liza. Sure, she's faster, but her positions are much sloppier, and over the season she's made at least three very visible mistakes on her spins.

I have a Liza question. Does she have a planned 3lz-2t in her FS!

Good question. So much talk about 3A, but she can win with her old layout (3Lz-3T and 2A-3T) skated clean.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think Anna and Serafima need to go to spin college.

While Liza's spins are just ok...they get the job done. Meh.

Lena has the best Beillman in the game. I swear one day something magical is going to appear when she hits that crazy position like a spider web or something.

 

[jenaj]

I think what Lipea meant was that the Russian coaches focus a lot more on the technique and athleticism side of things, not that American skaters have bad techniques. Unfortunately, the US female skaters you listed were really not what I will describe as having "stellar" techniques. Other than Kerrigan, the rest of them can't really perform all 5 of the standard triple jumps (toe to lutz) correctly. Kwan is a mild flutzer, Gold is a lipper, Kristi regularly falls on the salchow. Sasha Cohen is the classical American female skater with beautiful lines and package but when you look at the technical aspects, her jumps and edge work were really awful. Ironically, the one skater who had great technique, huge athleticism and great skating skills + edge work was Tonya Harding, but too bad on her lousy training habits and the criminal drama that wasted all that talent. Among the current young crop, I do see Karen Chen as the potential who can definitely give the Russian tsarinas a big run for the titles in a year or two.

You can nitpick anyone's technique. By such strict standards, Yuna had bad technique because she didn't do the loop. I didn't mention Sasha as someone with good technique, btw. I'll go with what Dick Button said about Michelle at age 15: if you have good technique, it allows the artistry to come out. Michelle was also known for her silent blades, which I'd say is pretty stellar.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Disagree on the spins. No doubt Elena is the best spinner, but I wouldn't put Anna above Liza. Sure, she's faster, but her positions are much sloppier, and over the season she's made at least three very visible mistakes on her spins.


Good question. So much talk about 3A, but she can win with her old layout (3Lz-3T and 2A-3T) skated clean.

But hasn't she intentionally been doing 3z-2t? Not 3z-3t. Has she done a 3z-3t this season?

 

[makaihime]

I absolutely love Meite's costume this season she looks gorgeous and I really enjoyed her program. Kiira's looking and skating beautifully as always. Congrats to the top 3 girls, they all skated wonderfully! Hope Elena throws it down during the LP

 

[Barb]

I love Kiira, her program was really beautiful

 

[Meoima]

It amazes me that Elena has the ugliest jumps yet gets the highest score. It amazes me that Anna can be so stunning to look at yet be so unpolished. It amazes me that Liza can have the highest PCS yet have the worst choreography. Am I the only one wondering why Anna's score was so low??

if all 3 of these ladies combined into 1 we will have the best skater of this area with the excellent spin, the best jump, the incredible speed, the looks and the charisma. But that would be unfair to the field.

 

[Sandpiper]

I think Anna and Serafima need to go to spin college.

Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on Anna/Serafima/Rika after watching Canadian Nationals. Now that was a parade of cruddy laybacks and forced Biellmanns. When Gabrielle Daleman finally hit a solid (as in, "slightly worse than Ashley Wagner's") Biellmann, I yelled "Hallelujah!" and probably would've handed the championship to her right there and then, despite preferring Alaine.

But hasn't she intentionally been doing 3z-2t? Not 3z-3t. Has she done a 3z-3t this season?

She's been doing 3Lz-2T-2Lo and 3T-3T this season.

I don't think she's losing too much BV in the FS, since she's still repeating lutz and toe. But she gives up the value of one 2T, and the 3S-2A SEQ gets the SEQ reduction. Those little points would probably be enough for the win, if she goes totally clean.

There have been reports of Liza practicing 3Lz-3T from as far back as early season. But I guess her team decided it wasn't steady enough to include.

Anyway, I should calm down. I do like Lena too and she'd make a wonderful European champion. Liza's in a good position, considering where she was last year. Heck, we can't even be sure Liza's current layout won't do it, since they've never had a clean vs. clean match-up.

 

[Ophelia]

Liza was very good but her spins are just OK, not as good as Anna (even with her hop in the flying spin, but she didn't loose speed), and Elena. In my book Liza is after Anna. Anna's jumps were superb, amazing speed and transitions, and a very powerful program. Liza's Bolero is not as beautiful as Carolina, and the 3T3T is not in the same league with 3Lz 3T. Elena...WOW, amazing. She deserves to lead. What a beautiful kid! These Russians are amazing, but I really miss Julia...

Uh...I don't think any senior lady ranks below Anna Pogo in terms of spins.

 

[Lipea]

I think what Lipea meant was that the Russian coaches focus a lot more on the technique and athleticism side of things, not that American skaters have bad techniques. Unfortunately, the US female skaters you listed were really not what I will describe as having "stellar" techniques. Other than Kerrigan, the rest of them can't really perform all 5 of the standard triple jumps (toe to lutz) correctly. Kwan is a mild flutzer, Gold is a lipper, Kristi regularly falls on the salchow. Sasha Cohen is the classical American female skater with beautiful lines and package but when you look at the technical aspects, her jumps and edge work were really awful. Ironically, the one skater who had great technique, huge athleticism and great skating skills + edge work was Tonya Harding, but too bad on her lousy training habits and the criminal drama that wasted all that talent. Among the current young crop, I do see Karen Chen as the potential who can definitely give the Russian tsarinas a big run for the titles in a year or two.

Actually I did not say that American technique is anyhow worse than Russian. This would be pointless: first because there are good things about both of them and second that there are too much of interchange - like Russian coaches training US skaters or Russian skaters training in US. American skaters generally have better stroke/lines and well-selling programs.

What I meant is that two countries have different systems of training. In the U.S. as I understand a skater has to pay for everything, and also for each hour of coaching time. So initially the one who succeed in that system is the one with stable financial resources and huge passion and desire to work hard. Kwan is a perfect example of it. Coach is rather secondary there, since his/her obligation is to work his/her hour, and if a skater doesn't like something that coach says, a skater can leave that coach.

In Russia, however, it is coaches who select their students based on talent/abilities they show when they are kids. Like Goncharenko who distinguished Lena out of other kids crowd for her outstanding commitment to be the best and stand in the center of the first raw. Or Mishin who got interested in Liza seeing big potential in her (already then) high jumps. A lot of them were initially rather poor: Plushenko, Liza, Yuliya, etc. Then the coach is committed to that student; a coach though is not being paid by a student, and it is a student who must do as well as he/she can, to get the most attention from the coach. And if a student is successful internationally a federation pays for almost all the expenses. But then it creates another problem that a skater does not develop enough of independence, and his/her passion is rather shared with coach/parent passion, and the obligation in front of the federation.

In a result, it is two different approaches that produce slightly different results. In Russian system you see now lots of youngsters with amazing technique, and who continue skating because (as many of them, and in particular Liza said) "It is all I know and can do in life". In US you see skaters like Ashley who know what they do and why, and really have a strong passion, but who lacks certain technical tools that Russian selected kids get fully with more intense-honest coach training.
At the same time Russia gives better conditions for their skaters: their top skaters don't share the ice with general visitors like I recently read from Aratyunyan interview.

 

[jenaj]

Just imagine if Anna Pogo could work with someone like Frank Carroll to improve her presentation. She is a beautiful girl and her jumps are very good, but the rest, no. She is kind of like a diamond in the rough that needs to be cut and polished.

 

[Alba]

Disagree on the spins. No doubt Elena is the best spinner, but I wouldn't put Anna above Liza. Sure, she's faster, but her positions are much sloppier, and over the season she's made at least three very visible mistakes on her spins.

I agree with you there. I don't think Anna is better than Liza in spins, although she is faster, but her positions are just bad.
Nevertheless, I was surprised with Anna here. I think she had improved a lot since nationals, which is a pretty short time. This was the best performance I've seen from her.

As for Liza's SP choreo. I'm not that keen, she is not my cup of tea mainly for those arm movements, but give me anytime her program rather than Carolina's Bolero. That one was just dull and empty, if we don't count her shaking the bottom only. At least Liza's program suit her so well and in terms of interpretation she is ahead of Carolina, IMO.

 

[Lipea]

Just imagine if Anna Pogo could work with someone like Frank Carroll to improve her presentation. She is a beautiful girl and her jumps are very good, but the rest, no. She is kind of like a diamond in the rough that needs to be cut and polished.

Only if temporarily. And only if he would not make another Disney princess from her

 

[Alba]

Just imagine if Anna Pogo could work with someone like Frank Carroll to improve her presentation.

I do imagine actually, and I don't like that image.

 

[jenaj]

I do imagine actually, and I don't like that image.

But look what he to a small extent and Lori Nichol to a large extent did for Carolina Kostner. And if not Carroll and Nichol, then Orser or Yuka Sato. It will never happen with Anna, of course, because it's not the Russian way.

 

[Alba]

But look what he to a small extent and Lori Nichol to a large extent did for Carolina Kostner. And if not Carroll and Nichol, then Orser or Yuka Sato. It will never happen with Anna, of course, because it's not the Russian way.

But Anna is not Carolina, and frankly Carroll didn't do much with her, as you mentioned. But I would like Orser or Yuka, yes. :thumbsup: I'm not saying that Carroll is a bad coach. His career speaks for him and he was great with Michelle and other skaters. I just don't think he would suit Anna.
I'm starting to have doubts about Gracie as well, which IMO is the best American skater right now, potentially.