Head Injuries and Figure Skating

[solani]

I don't think that the Hanyu/Han incident was handled irresponsibly. Neither of them was out cold. With all the skaters around it was good that the medical team didn't rush in to help and as Hanyu saw them he wanted to stand up immediatly. It looked worse than it really was because of the blood. The thing is: those things happen when a lot of skaters are on the ice and if it happens in training we just don't see it. I believe that both skaters were properly examinded by a physician after that crash.
But it's true that head injuries are a problem, f.e. young soccer players shouldn't do too many headers, it is known that this is not good for the brain when it's still in development. So I don't think that head injuries should be taken lightly, I just don't think that the Hanyu/Han crash was that bad.

 

[Eclair]

@eclair - I absolutely agree with you that Hanyu should not have been skating. I find it perplexing that you would assume that the medical personnel were incompetent and that Orser was more qualified to judge than they were.

If you go back & read articles written within a short time of the event, you will see that the Japan Skating Federation did not bring a team doctor along. Other doctors (reportedly from Team USA and Team Canada) evaluated Hanyu for concussion before he went back on the ice. I have not found any statements by those doctors confirming what advice they gave.

Orser's statement in the CBC article below should make it clear that he doesn't have the expertise you claim he should have, despite his years of experience as an athlete and coach. A doctor is trained to evaluate and make these decisions on the fly, under intense pressure. A coach is not. It seems to me Orser did what he thought was best in a situation he was not prepared for. It's clear in retrospect that he and everyone else involved guessed wrong.

The daily mail article includes a statement by Hanyu about the incident. The isaekkiya article contains a decent analysis of the situation, including ISU rules at the time of the accident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...-says-Olympic-figure-skating-champ-Hanyu.html

http://www.cbc.ca/m/sports/figuresk...n-still-wins-silver-at-cup-of-china-1.2828773

https://isaekkiya.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/the-blame-game/

papagena I don't doubt that Brian did what he thought was best and didn't mean to do any harm. But I am just as perplexed, that as an athlete and being in the sports Scene for so Long, he didn't know how to handle a head injury. I'm not expecting him to know all the Little Details about brain surgery, but one can expect that he knows that head injuries can be very serous and have to be IMMEDIATELY checked and not let the skater jump through an 4 Minutes Programm where he's likely to fall again.

As for the Team doctors of USA, I have no idea what they said, but if they indeed checked him and didn't say NO, then it was irresponsible from them. As Posters before me already said, it's not only about the damage that was made from the fall - which can worsen very quickly and out of nowhere, but falling again after having an head injury is just as dangerous. Looking at Hanyu and Han yans state, of course, they were going to fall at their respective jumping sequences.

I don't think that the Hanyu/Han incident was handled irresponsibly. Neither of them was out cold. With all the skaters around it was good that the medical team didn't rush in to help and as Hanyu saw them he wanted to stand up immediatly. It looked worse than it really was because of the blood. The thing is: those things happen when a lot of skaters are on the ice and if it happens in training we just don't see it. I believe that both skaters were properly examinded by a physician after that crash.
But it's true that head injuries are a problem, f.e. young soccer players shouldn't do too many headers, it is known that this is not good for the brain when it's still in development. So I don't think that head injuries should be taken lightly, I just don't think that the Hanyu/Han crash was that bad.

psusanne, while I usually have the utmost respect of your Posts, I have none for this one. At the time of the accident, the severity of the head injury wasn't known. That's why both of them should have gotten to an Hospital. Head injuries can be unpredictable, that's the reason no matter how good a Person is responding immediately after the crash, an CT is obligatory! It's an medical mistake, if you don't do one. Hanyu and Han yan had sheer LUCK, that it wasn't worse, but nobody at that time could have known they were OK. Therefore it was indeed very irresponsible from all parties to let them skate (and fall again).

 

[aromaticchicken]

I don't think that the Hanyu/Han incident was handled irresponsibly. Neither of them was out cold. With all the skaters around it was good that the medical team didn't rush in to help and as Hanyu saw them he wanted to stand up immediatly. It looked worse than it really was because of the blood. The thing is: those things happen when a lot of skaters are on the ice and if it happens in training we just don't see it. I believe that both skaters were properly examinded by a physician after that crash.
But it's true that head injuries are a problem, f.e. young soccer players shouldn't do too many headers, it is known that this is not good for the brain when it's still in development. So I don't think that head injuries should be taken lightly, I just don't think that the Hanyu/Han crash was that bad.

psusanne, while I usually have the utmost respect of your Posts, I have none for this one. At the time of the accident, the severity of the head injury wasn't known. That's why both of them should have gotten to an Hospital. Head injuries can be unpredictable, that's the reason no matter how good a Person is responding immediately after the crash, an CT is obligatory! It's an medical mistake, if you don't do one. Hanyu and Han yan had sheer LUCK, that it wasn't worse, but nobody at that time could have known they were OK. Therefore it was indeed very irresponsible from all parties to let them skate (and fall again).

Eclair agree with you entirely. Psusanne, it doesn't take being "out cold" in order to get a concussion. It honestly could have been VERY serious. It's not even that they didn't immediately go to the hospital, it's that they then went on to let Yuzu skate, and fall apart with multiple falls.

 

[Seren]

I don't think that the Hanyu/Han incident was handled irresponsibly. Neither of them was out cold. With all the skaters around it was good that the medical team didn't rush in to help and as Hanyu saw them he wanted to stand up immediatly. It looked worse than it really was because of the blood. The thing is: those things happen when a lot of skaters are on the ice and if it happens in training we just don't see it. I believe that both skaters were properly examinded by a physician after that crash.
But it's true that head injuries are a problem, f.e. young soccer players shouldn't do too many headers, it is known that this is not good for the brain when it's still in development. So I don't think that head injuries should be taken lightly, I just don't think that the Hanyu/Han crash was that bad.

Anyone with experience with head injuries will tell you this is wrong. I mentioned the actress Natasha Richardson (she played the mother in the newer version of the film The Parent Trap) before. She had a minor fall during a skiing accident and afterward gave a lucid interview (she seemed fine, was aware of her surrounding, could talk normally, knew what had happened, etc.), had no symptoms, and refused medical treatment. She went back to her hotel and 3 hours later complained of a headache. She died the next day of epidural hematoma (a type of traumatic brain injury resulting from bleeding in the brain). Her accident was minor and she seemed okay.

In the case of Hanyu/Han, they both clearly looked off. Han looked like he was skating in a Fog and Hanyu's repeated falls were scary especially considering he could have hit his head again. Yes, head injuries happen in training, and when they do they should be taken just as seriously as when they happen in competition.

The point is you cannot tell how serious a concussion is without being evaluated by a trained professional and having appropriate imaging. It's not worth dying because you "didn't think it was that bad."

 

[musicfan80]

The Hanyu/Han incident makes me ill to think about. Hanyu had FIVE falls during that long program after hitting his head on the ice. I really don't understand why that didn't bother more people.

I feel that what happened, along with the score Hanyu received for that skate, was one of the most horrifying things that has happened in this sport.

 

[satine]

The Hanyu/Han incident makes me ill to think about. Hanyu had FIVE falls during that long program after hitting his head on the ice. I really don't understand why that didn't bother more people.

I feel that what happened, along with the score Hanyu received for that skate, was one of the most horrifying things that has happened in this sport.

It did bother a lot of people.

I don't understand why so many people think this wasn't perceived as a big deal, wasn't received with tons of criticism, & that sooo many people dubbed them both 'heroes'. Maybe a select few on here & a good deal of Yuzuru's hardcore fans (mostly on Tumblr) reacted in those ways, but not skating fans in general.

 

[Amei]

Also, I've heard about the "three times and you're out" saying about multiple head injuries. Does this apply to concussions and worse or all head impacts together? For example, a skater hits their head, but just swelling occurs.

I disagree with there being a blanket number for if you suffer x amount of head injuries, you are no longer eligible to compete because I think it would do more harm than good. Mainly because I think it will result in injuries being concealed.

 

[Jammers]

Even if Hanyu didn't have a concussion the way he was flopping when he fell he could have very well gotten one. It was ridiculous of him to skate. His pride will get him really hurt one day if he's not careful. Sometimes a coach has to step in and think about the welfare of his skater and say no you are not going out on that ice.

 

[desertskates]

I was really very upset to see Yuzu skate I suffered a very serious concussion once in an accident and didn't resume adult skating until about 6 months later after medical clearance. You are literally lost inside your own head. You only get one head and nothing in the world is worth the damage that can be done by hitting it again. Rest and a lot of patience is what was needed here.
Sorry for the rant, just feel strongly on the subject.

 

[apgold]

I am glad that both Hanee and Yuzu did not sustain any long term damage (that we know of). I do hope if something like this happens again, that all involved will err on the side of caution and not push through a skate.

 

[Rissa]

Deja vu.

It's clear in retrospect that he and everyone else involved guessed wrong.

Lol what? I'm a huge Hanyu fan myself but the dramatcs in this thread is just ridiculous. From the fact that Hanyu recovered enough to be capable of winning GPF a few weeks later, it's CLEAR IN RETROSPECT that he and everyone else involved guessed RIGHT. Retrospect is funny like that, it tells us the result of the decision that's been made, and this time it was luckily positive. (Not that I'd recommend repeating that game of luck, count me on the side of erring on the side of caution.)

 

[Amei]

Lol what? I'm a huge Hanyu fan myself but the dramatcs in this thread is just ridiculous. From the fact that Hanyu recovered enough to be capable of winning GPF a few weeks later, it's CLEAR IN RETROSPECT that he and everyone else involved guessed RIGHT. Retrospect is funny like that, it tells us the result of the decision that's been made, and this time it was luckily positive. (Not that I'd recommend repeating that game of luck, count me on the side of erring on the side of caution.)

Hanyu had like 5 falls in the immediate performance following the collision and was clearly somewhat disoriented which to me (and it seems a good portion of the board) that it wasn't just a day when the jumps didn't go his way but that he was probably suffering ill-effects of the hit.

 

[HanDomi]

Hanyu had like 5 falls in the immediate performance following the collision and was clearly somewhat disoriented which to me (and it seems a good portion of the board) that it wasn't just a day when the jumps didn't go his way but that he was probably suffering ill-effects of the hit.

If Hanyu falls on 3A then it clearly says something is not ok

But seriously, Hanyu hit the ice quite hard with the head, and it was clear that even if he was not knocked out he was dizzy during skate, not to mention it lead up to leg injuiry

 

[Tavi...]

Deja vu.



Lol what? I'm a huge Hanyu fan myself but the dramatcs in this thread is just ridiculous. From the fact that Hanyu recovered enough to be capable of winning GPF a few weeks later, it's CLEAR IN RETROSPECT that he and everyone else involved guessed RIGHT. Retrospect is funny like that, it tells us the result of the decision that's been made, and this time it was luckily positive. (Not that I'd recommend repeating that game of luck, count me on the side of erring on the side of caution.)

Gosh gee mon amie, I regret to say I disagree.

Whether or not Hanyu recovered enough to win the GPF in December is irrelevant to the question of whether he should have gone back on the ice in November at COC. The kid fell five times in the space of 4 minutes. The fact that a poor decision turns out not to have had catastrophic consequences doesn't mean that IN RETROSPECT it wasn't a poor decision. It simply means he was really really lucky.

 

[ribbit]

Gosh gee mon amie, I regret to say I disagree.

Whether or not Hanyu recovered enough to win the GPF in December is irrelevant to the question of whether he should have gone back on the ice in November at COC. The kid fell five times in the space of 4 minutes. The fact that a poor decision turns out not to have had catastrophic consequences doesn't mean that IN RETROSPECT it wasn't a poor decision. It simply means he was really really lucky.

What's really frightening is that we don't know, and may not know for years, whether or not the decision to skate had catastrophic consequences or not. Americans are becoming alarmed about American football because researchers have discovered that repeated concussions can contribute to serious, life-altering, irreversible neurodegenerative conditions (CTE, ALS, early-onset dementia). These conditions don't become obvious for years, although early signs can be seen before the conditions manifest fully. So while we all hope that neither Hanyu nor Han will suffer any long-term effects from the decisions made that night, we can't actually say with certainty that he won't. (Don't get me wrong--I hope neither does, and both go on to live happy and trauma-free lives! But it does us no good to lull ourselves into a false sense of security when it's actually much too soon to know that there will be no lasting consequences.)

ETA: Just in case it isn't clear, I'm agreeing with you, papagena!

 

[Tavi...]

What's really frightening is that we don't know, and may not know for years, whether or not the decision to skate had catastrophic consequences or not. Americans are becoming alarmed about American football because researchers have discovered that repeated concussions can contribute to serious, life-altering, irreversible neurodegenerative conditions (CTE, ALS, early-onset dementia). These conditions don't become obvious for years, although early signs can be seen before the conditions manifest fully. So while we all hope that neither Hanyu nor Han will suffer any long-term effects from the decisions made that night, we can't actually say with certainty that he won't. (Don't get me wrong--I hope neither does, and both go on to live happy and trauma-free lives! But it does us no good to lull ourselves into a false sense of security when it's actually much too soon to know that there will be no lasting consequences.)

ETA: Just in case it isn't clear, I'm agreeing with you, papagena!

Totally clear and agree with what you're saying here, too.

When I was little (eg years ago) I desperately wanted to play on the trampoline in the neighbors' back yard but my father (a neurosurgeon) knew what could happen in an unsupervised environment and wouldn't let me.

I didn't understand then but I do now.

In my case the situation was simple - my father forbid me from doing something dangerous and it didn't occur to me to challenge him. In the case of Hanyu and Han Yan, there were no clear rules and responsibilities that all the parties agreed to, and so, figuratively speaking, chaos ensued. Our athletes deserve better and I hope the ISU, the individual federations, and organizations such as PSA make sure that what happened at COC is not repeated.

 

[noskates]

Using the thought process that Hanyu was okay to skate because he skated successfully is not a logical nor reasonable argument. He got lucky. Plain and simple. I'm glad he has no lasting effects but that was truly the luck of the draw. Saying that Orser is not a doctor is weak..................the accident was horrific. Common sense would have said this is not a good thing to send that young man back on the ice. Sometimes ulterior motives get in the way of doing what's right. Saying Kori Ade would have pulled Jason because of their relationship minimizes the responsibility of Hanyu's team. Having a close relationship or not doesn't mitigate the fact that coaches are responsible for their skaters well-being and are basically in charge at a competition.

 

[Tavi...]

Using the thought process that Hanyu was okay to skate because he skated successfully is not a logical nor reasonable argument. He got lucky. Plain and simple. I'm glad he has no lasting effects but that was truly the luck of the draw. Saying that Orser is not a doctor is weak..................the accident was horrific. Common sense would have said this is not a good thing to send that young man back on the ice. Sometimes ulterior motives get in the way of doing what's right. Saying Kori Ade would have pulled Jason because of their relationship minimizes the responsibility of Hanyu's team. Having a close relationship or not doesn't mitigate the fact that coaches are responsible for their skaters well-being and are basically in charge at a competition.

Yes well since you're clearly responding to me I'll just have to disagree with you.

You make a very broad statement about coaches - that they "are responsible for their skaters well being and are basically in charge at a competition"- with absolutely no factual support. That's simply your assumption and based on that assumption you feel justified in blaming Orser for "letting" Hanyu back on the ice. Unless you know for a fact that all coaches are "responsible" and "in charge" and you know what training the coaches have in handling situations like this, etc., your whole argument falls apart. I mean, do you think it's up to an NFL head coach to take his star player out after he's been hit? No, it's up to the medical team, who now have to follow guidelines set by a neutral body so they're not tempted to cave to pressure to put the star player back in so the team can win. It shouldn't be any different in skating, regardless of the fact that it's not a team sport.

The reason societies have rules is because different people have differing ideas of "common sense" and each society decrees what common sense means in a particular situation in that particular culture and punishes those who break the rules.

 

[aromaticchicken]

Yes well since you're clearly responding to me I'll just have to disagree with you.

You make a very broad statement about coaches - that they "are responsible for their skaters well being and are basically in charge at a competition"- with absolutely no factual support. That's simply your assumption and based on that assumption you feel justified in blaming Orser for "letting" Hanyu back on the ice. Unless you know for a fact that all coaches are "responsible" and "in charge" and you know what training the coaches have in handling situations like this, etc., your whole argument falls apart. I mean, do you think it's up to an NFL head coach to take his star player out after he's been hit? No, it's up to the medical team, who now have to follow guidelines set by a neutral body so they're not tempted to cave to pressure to put the star player back in so the team can win. It shouldn't be any different in skating, regardless of the fact that it's not a team sport.

The reason societies have rules is because different people have differing ideas of "common sense" and each society decrees what common sense means in a particular situation in that particular culture and punishes those who break the rules.

Fine. If Orser wasn't in charge, he certainly ethically as a coach of an athlete should have opposed yuzuru returning. If I were the coach I would've refused to condone it and be there at the boards, and would've pushed for withdraw even if I didn't have the authority to make that decision. I lost tremendous faith in Orser and other decision makers at the event for even letting it happen. The results could have been horrific.

I wonder what yuzurus parents feel about it all. I can't imagine watching my child get an injury like that and then try to do quads and triple axels and fall apart. He could have literally killed himself.

Same with Yan hans team.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't think this stuff is any of our buisiness myself. I've worked with NHL trainers on several occasions and I'm always asking about concussions and "the quiet room." They tend to say that no two head trauma's are the same. They also say the ones that look bad often surprisingly enough are more mild and how the little odd ones always seem perplexing and present the most issues.

Anyway...my point is. If we aren't there disseminating the medical information then really we know nothing and this isn't really a soap box issue we should be speaking in absolutes about and questioning people.